# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/301 "2014-03-03T09:42:15Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The leadership I was referring to was not direct military intervention. There are other options if we had a strong leader. Go to the UN and get a coalition of Nations to condemn Russia’s actions and develop appropriate economic sanctions. > > The biggest question is… Will the world passively sit by and watch Putin reassemble the old Soviet state? Will China support Russia’s current actions? > > The US can’t solve this alone. It’s going to take a coalition. Sanctions have to go through the Security Council. Guess what one of the five nations that has veto power on the Security Council is? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/302 "2014-03-03T09:56:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Sanctions have to go through the Security Council. Guess what one of the five nations that has veto power on the Security Council is? There’s nothing stopping any country from imposing sanctions on anyone it wants. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/303 "2014-03-03T09:58:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > There’s nothing stopping any country from imposing sanctions on anyone it wants. The person I was replying to specifically said “go to the UN” and establish sanctions, though. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/304 "2014-03-03T10:21:15Z")
Sanctions themselves could be disastrous for the rest of Europe (and global economy) if Russia retaliates and starts cutting off the gas and oil supplies. Incidentally, [there’s been some speculation](http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Gazprom-Funds-Anti-Fracking-Campaigns-in-Europe.html) that GazProm has been funding anti-fracking movements in the EU to maintain the country’s hold over the continent’s energy supplies. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/305 "2014-03-03T10:25:35Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Sanctions themselves could be disastrous for the rest of Europe (and global economy) if Russia retaliates and starts cutting off the gas and oil supplies. Incidentally, [there’s been some speculation](http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Gazprom-Funds-Anti-Fracking-Campaigns-in-Europe.html) that GazProm has been funding anti-fracking movements in the EU to maintain the country’s hold over the continent’s energy supplies. I guess it depends on whether Europe needs gas more than Russia needs money. Winter is almost over. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/306 "2014-03-03T10:29:22Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Sanctions themselves could be disastrous for the rest of Europe (and global economy) if Russia retaliates and starts cutting off the gas and oil supplies. Incidentally, [there’s been some speculation](http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Gazprom-Funds-Anti-Fracking-Campaigns-in-Europe.html) that GazProm has been funding anti-fracking movements in the EU to maintain the country’s hold over the continent’s energy supplies. I think I’ve asked this question before but I haven’t seen an answer. What stops Europe from getting its gas and oil from somewhere else? Couldn’t they just switch to stuff from North Africa, Norway and the Gulf states in order to punish Russia? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/307 "2014-03-03T10:35:25Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > What stops Europe from getting its gas and oil from somewhere else? Couldn’t they just switch to stuff from North Africa, Norway and the Gulf states in order to punish Russia? Not all of Europe is supplied by Russia. The UK for instance uses a mixture of its own North Sea supply and Norwegian imports. I imagine some European countries, perhaps the rest of Scandinavia, also use Norwegian oil. Southern European countries like Italy and Spain receive oil imports from North Africa through the Greenstream Pipeline. It’s Central and Eastern Europe (including Germany, Poland and the Czech Republic) that are dependent on Russian energy imports via the “Friendship pipeline” (:smack:). ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/308 "2014-03-03T10:37:18Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I guess it depends on whether Europe needs gas more than Russia needs money. Winter is almost over. Almost. The temperature is still dropping below freezing in Eastern Europe, though. Vilnius is projected to have lows of -3C all this week. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/309 "2014-03-03T10:45:43Z")
The first real diplomatic response on the part of the West: [the G-8 has contracted, becoming the G-7](http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/03/02/g-7-leaders-statement). [Meanwhile, the Russian stock exchange is in freefall.](http://i.imgur.com/u9Q3gmM.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/310 "2014-03-03T10:47:11Z")
There’s a difference between oil and gas. Oil is transported in tankers and barrels, and can be traded on the open market. So long as Russia is producing oil at the same rate and selling it to _someone_, its price and availability for Europe will remain essentially the same. Gas is a different story. Gas - being a gas - can only be transported via pipeline, point to point. If the valve between Russia and Europe is shut, the Europeans don’t have another pipeline to supply them, and the Russians have a whole bunch of gas they have nothing to do with. It’s a big problem for both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/311 "2014-03-03T10:53:26Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > There’s a difference between oil and gas. > > Oil is transported in tankers and barrels, and can be traded on the open market. So long as Russia is producing oil at the same rate and selling it to _someone_, its price and availability for Europe will remain essentially the same. > > Gas is a different story. Gas - being a gas - can only be transported via pipeline, point to point. If the valve between Russia and Europe is shut, the Europeans don’t have another pipeline to supply them, and the Russians have a whole bunch of gas they have nothing to do with. It’s a big problem for both sides. Thanks for the clear answer. I guess European economies are in no position to stop importing Russian gas. ---
**Author:** ![iLemming](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90db22/32.png) [@iLemming](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iLemming)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/312 "2014-03-03T11:42:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Gas is a different story. Gas - being a gas - can only be transported via pipeline, point to point. [![](https://i.imgur.com/Jf0z2eG.jpg) ](https://i.imgur.com/Jf0z2eG.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/313 "2014-03-03T11:52:46Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Secretary Kerry on Meet The Press: > > “You just don’t in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext.” > > Earth to Kerry: Er, yes, you do, as one other superpower (whose name escapes me for the moment) has amply demonstrated. > > **Really, could this Administration sound more inept?** – bolding mine. Sure. They just need to train harder. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/314 "2014-03-03T11:54:31Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > He can’t even figure out the quote function. Surely you don’t expect him to get ‘jokes’? Mace cannot figure out why he agreed that Kerry’s statement was ironic which means Mace says things that are not valid or thought through or that make any sense whatever. Your affections for Mace’s style and abilities make it clear where your standards for debate lie. Do you have anything to contribute to the OP other than some kind of quote function supervisor or whatever it is you are doing. I’ll put you on the list with these misplaced ‘jokesters’ for now: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Tom Tildrum (Post 17151177) I’d really like to see a foreign policy debate between Marmite Lover and NotFooledbyW. \<“Cite” > > > [@](#): > > > > (-RedFury 03-01-2014 12:21 PM) Take a Xanax. It would amount to the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/315 "2014-03-03T12:04:39Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Putin clearly has grand ambitions. He’s either stopped now or after he reassembles the Soviet empire. It’s the world’s decision. What happens today could very well impact history. > > If he takes The Ukraine then why stop there? None of those former Soviet states have any hope of defending themselves. In reality – you know, where _we live_– that post aligns much better with the US’s ongoing foreign policy of oh…the past 50+ years or so. But sure…USA! USA! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/316 "2014-03-03T12:08:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re right. Kerry never approved the invasion of another country in the 21st century on trumped up charges. What was I thinking? :smack: Here’s the problem, **John** : you _ **are** _ thinking while “others” remain in Bot mode. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/317 "2014-03-03T12:22:03Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > Ace, is it your contention that we should be prepared for war with Russia over this? That we engage in a conflict on a scale not seen in generations? Because I don’t think any of the hawks really understands the scale of a war with Russia. **I actually think the west would win a conventional conflict pretty easily** , but not before unimaginable destruction and loss of life. – bolding mine. Bullocks, Sir! There’s no way in hell a confrontation with Russia ends-up with an “easy win.” No way, no how you go to war vs Russia on their own soil and get any sort of easy victory. Just take a look @ Iraq & Afhanistan and whats happened there. And let me assure you Sir, Russia is Iraq and Afghanistan to the nth degree. Lastly, what makes you think that if indeed Russia felt it was losing such a massive conflict it would keep fighting a conventional war? At that point they wouldn’t have much/anything to loose. By the by they just happen to have the [**world’s largest nuclear arsenal in so far as total number of weapons available**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons). “Easy victory”? Sure. In a James Bond film. Once again, as I mentioned upthread, in the real world this where M.A.D. comes into play. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/318 "2014-03-03T12:31:43Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > The first real diplomatic response on the part of the West: [the G-8 has contracted, becoming the G-7](http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/03/02/g-7-leaders-statement). > > [Meanwhile, the Russian stock exchange is in freefall.](http://i.imgur.com/u9Q3gmM.jpg) That was the obvious thing to do, and I’m glad it’s been done. Russia was only there anyway as an acknowledgement of its importance in the world. Economically, it never deserved to be in the G-8. But let’s not make this like what happened with Georgia, where a few things were done that were rescinded less than a year later. This should be permanent. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/319 "2014-03-03T12:33:31Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I don’t think it was masterful. It was proper. Why do you think it was masterful now that you admit it was not ironic? You are as inconsistent as ever on your reasoning. Attention shoppers! Sarcasm meters on sale on aisle three! ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/320 "2014-03-03T12:37:17Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > – bolding mine. > > Bullocks, Sir! There’s no way in hell a confrontation with Russia ends-up with an “easy win.” No way, no how you go to war vs Russia on their own soil and get any sort of easy victory. > > Just take a look @ Iraq & Afhanistan and whats happened there. And let me assure you Sir, Russia is Iraq and Afghanistan to the nth degree. Guerilla warfare is only a factor if you intend to conquer or nationbuild. A war between Russia and NATO would have neither objective. The objective would be to destroy Russia’s warmaking power, which is a purely conventional problem, and one which NATO is VERY good at. We’d break all their shit and leave. > [@](#): > > Lastly, what makes you think that if indeed Russia felt it was losing such a massive conflict it would keep fighting a conventional war? At that point they wouldn’t have much/anything to loose. By the by they just happen to have the [**world’s largest nuclear arsenal in so far as total number of weapons available**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons). This is the real problem. And why war is unthinkable unless we have no other options(such as Russia attacking the Baltic Republics). In that case, our only hope is that the leaders of Russia don’t want to die, which they would in case of nuclear war. Plus of course Russia would be destroyed, which I can’t imagine most leaders would want unless they think it’s all about them like Hitler did(and remember that once Hitler was out of the picture, the leadership that remained did not want Germany completely destroyed). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=17)