# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 161
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3201 "2014-05-16T03:19:47Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I am referring to what is commonly referred to as the ‘folks’ who regard ‘Russian’ as their native language. And? My native tongue is Russian, but I speak American English well enough that you won’t hear an accent. Do you think I have some kind of special issues here in the US that people whose Russian is not native do not? > [@](#): > > There are political issues regarding the so-called official language of Ukraine which is not Russian. Name some. I have been asking you for examples of persecution in the last few decades in Ukraine, before these current events, of those who regard Russian as their native tongue (obviously as opposed to those who speak Russian fluently, but for whom it is not native). You have still to give me some. In fact, do you think it is easy to tell one from the other if you met them on the street? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3202 "2014-05-16T03:21:52Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > On August 8, Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych signed a new law, “On the principles of language politics,” that allows cities and regions to pass legislation that would give Russian (or any other minority tongue) the status of an official language if 10 percent or more of the population of that region speaks it as a native tongue. There are huge regions of Russia where at least 10%, and usually a lot more, of people’s native tongue is not Russian. For some of the regions that language is Ukrainian. Can you show ANY region in Russia where some language other than Russian was made “an official language”? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3203 "2014-05-16T03:37:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There are huge regions of Russia where at least 10%, and usually a lot more, of people’s native tongue is not Russian. For some of the regions that language is Ukrainian. Can you show ANY region in Russia where some language other than Russian was made “an official language”? For that matter, it’s worth noting that the official position of the Russian government when the Ukraine was part of Russia was that Ukrainian wasn’t really a language but a “dialect”. Considering the fact that they are “mutually comprehensible” that’s actually quite logical and defensible. My college roommate was from Bulgaria and spoke Russian, like all Eastern Europeans who grew up during the Cold War, and when he had no problems understanding what Ukrainians were saying even though he never took any courses in “Ukrainian”. He just thought it was heavily accented Russian. In fact, I suspect that the average Muscovite would an easier time understanding what people in the Ukraine are saying when they’re speaking than the average American could understand people in a Jamaica bar talking with one another. Of course we’ve all heard the joke about the difference between a “dialect” and a “language” and now the Russians are using the same line of thinking seems to justify carving up another country. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3204 "2014-05-16T04:13:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For that matter, it’s worth noting that the official position of the Russian government when the Ukraine was part of Russia was that Ukrainian wasn’t really a language but a “dialect”. > > Considering the fact that they are “mutually comprehensible” that’s actually quite logical and defensible. > > My college roommate was from Bulgaria and spoke Russian, like all Eastern Europeans who grew up during the Cold War, and when he had no problems understanding what Ukrainians were saying even though he never took any courses in “Ukrainian”. He just thought it was heavily accented Russian. > > In fact, I suspect that the average Muscovite would an easier time understanding what people in the Ukraine are saying when they’re speaking than the average American could understand people in a Jamaica bar talking with one another. > > Of course we’ve all heard the joke about the difference between a “dialect” and a “language” and now the Russians are using the same line of thinking seems to justify carving up another country. As was noted early on in this thread… Everyone in Ukraine understand Russian and Ukrainian. Some people prefer to speak Russian and some prefer to speak Ukrainian. **NFBW** linked to an article about this not too long ago, but now he wants to pretend as if there is some huge ethno-linguistic divide between “Russian Speakers” and “Ukrainian Speakers”. This is a complete red herring from someone who wants to cheerlead the break-up of Ukraine for who-knows-what reason. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3205 "2014-05-16T04:55:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As was noted early on in this thread… Everyone in Ukraine understand Russian and Ukrainian. Some people prefer to speak Russian and some prefer to speak Ukrainian. > > **NFBW** linked to an article about this not too long ago, but now he wants to pretend as if there is some huge ethno-linguistic divide between “Russian Speakers” and “Ukrainian Speakers”. This is a complete red herring from someone who wants to cheerlead the break-up of Ukraine for who-knows-what reason. You are in error again. I am not pretending anything. Language in Ukraine has much to do with the people’s national identities. > [@](#): > > Russian and Ukrainian are closely related Slavic tongues, but they are also distinct languages with separate ethnic and national identities. The Christian Science Monitor reports that Russian-language activists in Ukraine have long wanted to make Russian a second official state language, citing such scenarios in multi-lingual countries like Canada and India. “There is this pervasive suggestion that if you speak Russian, you’re not a loyal or true Ukrainian. This makes Russian-speakers feel like second-class citizens,” Ruslan Bortnik, vice chairman of Russian-Speaking Ukraine, an advocacy group, told the Monitor. > > Of course, Ukrainian nationalists fear the further encroachment of Russian into its national fabric. “If Russian were an official language, the main fear is that it would be a wide-open door for Russian influence in Ukraine,” said Oleksiy Kolomiyets, president of the Center for European and Transatlantic Studies in Kiev. > **[Watch Your Tongue: Ukraine's Language Conflict](https://www.ibtimes.com/watch-your-tongue-language-controversy-one-fundamental-conflicts-ukraine-1559069)** > > Russian speakers are concentrated in the southern and eastern parts of Ukraine. Does anyone dispute that those Ukrainian nationalists favoring alliance with the EU and severing ties with Russia identify themselves as Ukrainian speakers? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3206 "2014-05-16T05:04:59Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You are in error again. I am not pretending anything. Language in Ukraine has much to do with the people’s national identities. > > [Watch Your Tongue: Language Controversy One Of Fundamental Conflicts In Ukraine | IBTimes](http://www.ibtimes.com/watch-your-tongue-language-controversy-one-fundamental-conflicts-ukraine-1559069) > > Does anyone dispute that those Ukrainian nationalists favoring alliance with the EU and severing ties with Russia identify themselves as Ukrainian speakers? Perhaps you could help us out by answering a few simple questions. Do the people of Sicily and the people of Rome speak different languages or do they speak different dialects? Do the people of Palestine and the people of Egypt speak different languages? Do Canadians and Jamaicans speak different languages or do they speak the same? Do the Portuguese and the Brazilians speak the same language, do they speak different dialects, or do they speak different languages? Finally, please, in your own words tell me how you define the differences between a language and a dialect? Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3207 "2014-05-16T05:35:20Z")
When you tell me what relevance your simple questions have to the core discussion here perhaps I could look up some sociology in Sicily. My question is about Ukraine. Do you dispute this? Does anyone dispute that those Ukrainian nationalists favoring alliance with the EU and severing ties with Russia identify themselves as Ukrainian speakers? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3208 "2014-05-16T05:51:47Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > When you tell me what relevance your simple questions have to the core discussion here perhaps I could look up some sociology in Sicily. > > My question is about Ukraine. Do you dispute this? > > Does anyone dispute that those Ukrainian nationalists favoring alliance with the EU and severing ties with Russia identify themselves as Ukrainian speakers? Nobody disputes the fact that there are differences between “Russian” and “Ukrainian”. There are differences between Spanish as spoken in Puerto Rico and Spanish as spoken in Tijuana but nobody says the people there speak different “languages” merely that they speak different “dialects”. “Russian” and “Ukrainian” are “mutually intelligible” which is usually the standard linguists use to decide if something should be considered a separate “dialect” instead of a separate “language”. What I’m checking for is intellectual consistency. So, once again do the people of The West Bank and the people of Cairo speak different languages or do they speak different dialects? Also, do the people of Rome and Sicily speak different languages or do they speak different dialects? Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3209 "2014-05-16T11:51:15Z")
I’m looking at the language differences and separation in Ukraine as it invokes ethnic and nationalistic identity. Ukrainian is the official language and whether it may be intelligible to some or many Ukrainian speacking ears and eyes or not, the Russian language is identified by the majority language being spoken in Ukraine as not official and not conducive to Ukrainuan nationalism and loyalty. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3210 "2014-05-16T12:36:33Z")
If the difference between the Ukrainian and Russian languages/dialects is as unimportant as some people here are insisting why did the new Ukrainian rulers consider it such a priority to bring in a bill repealing legislation that had recognized Russian as one of the official languages of Ukraine? It was only after protests from the OSCE and neighboring countries that the new law making Ukrainian the sole official language, which had been hurriedly pushed through with no debate and approved by the Maidanist majority, was (no doubt reluctantly) vetoed by the acting President. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3211 "2014-05-16T12:43:06Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > If the difference between the Ukrainian and Russian languages/dialects is as unimportant as some people here are insisting why did the new Ukrainian rulers consider it such a priority to bring in a bill repealing legislation that had recognized Russian as one of the official languages of Ukraine? It was only after protests from the OSCE and neighboring countries that the new law making Ukrainian the sole official language, which had been hurriedly pushed through with no debate and approved by the Maidanist majority, was (no doubt reluctantly) vetoed by the acting President. Can you check for me - how many official languages does Russia have? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3212 "2014-05-16T12:54:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > “Russian” and “Ukrainian” are “mutually intelligible” which is usually the standard linguists use to decide if something should be considered a separate “dialect” instead of a separate “language”. > > What I’m checking for is intellectual consistency. Which is neither here nor there. Apparently there _are_ differences and it is one of the reasons people in the region self-identify as being Ukrainian or Russian. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3213 "2014-05-16T14:32:17Z")
Interesting news - apparantly, the seperatist militias in at least one city have been sent packing by - steelworkers. > [@](#): > > In what could represent a decisive turning point in the Ukrainian conflict and a setback for Russia, thousands of steelworkers fanned out Thursday over the city of Mariupol, establishing control over the streets and routing the pro-Kremlin militants who seized control several weeks ago. > > By late Thursday, miners and steelworkers had deployed in at least five cities, including the regional capital, Donetsk, though they had not yet become the dominant force there that they are in Mariupol, the region’s second largest city and the site just last week of bloody confrontations between Ukrainian troops and pro-Russian militants. [http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/ukrainian-steelworkers-rout-separatists-in-city-of-mariupol/article18711105/](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/ukrainian-steelworkers-rout-separatists-in-city-of-mariupol/article18711105/) According to the interviews, admittedly anecdotal, most actual citizens appear to be glad. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3214 "2014-05-16T14:59:41Z")
Yes that is interesting. A lot of the talk earlier in the crisis talked about how all the Eastern industry depended on Russian trade. It seems, not so much. I can see why the separatists might crumble in the face of this. Miners and steelworkers are the backbone of that part of the country. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3215 "2014-05-16T17:13:45Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Interesting news - apparantly, the seperatist militias in at least one city have been sent packing by - steelworkers. > > [http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/ukrainian-steelworkers-rout-separatists-in-city-of-mariupol/article18711105/](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/ukrainian-steelworkers-rout-separatists-in-city-of-mariupol/article18711105/) > > According to the interviews, admittedly anecdotal, most actual citizens appear to be glad. This a better plan than the OCSE plan: > [@](#): > > Akhmetov himself laid out his plan in a YouTube video posted on Wednesday. In it, he calls for the kind of federalism trumpeted by the Russian foreign minister — one that gives power to the states versus the central government in Kiev. That would result in a largely decentralized power structure in Ukraine that would open up the eastern regions to Russian meddling. But it could, with Akhmetov’s support, lead to an end to the worst post-Cold War crisis between east and west. Surely they won’t call Ukraine’s richest man a terrorist if he helps to achieve what Putin has been asking for without any bloodshed. > [@](#): > > He is hoping, he said in a statement published by his company, to avoid “economic downturn, unemployment and poverty.” > > “The only right way, in my view, is to amend the Constitution and decentralize government,” Akhmetov said. “It is when Kiev gives authority to the regions. It is when regional governments are not appointed but elected. And it is when local authorities are responsible to the people in the present and future.” Steelworkers in Unlikely Bid to Bring Order to Eastern Ukraine. - [Steelworkers in Unlikely Bid to Bring Order to Eastern Ukraine | Mashable](http://mashable.com/2014/05/15/steelworkers-eastern-ukraine/?utm_campaign=Mash-Prod-RSS-Feedburner-All-Partial&utm_cid=Mash-Prod-RSS-Feedburner-All-Partial&utm_medium=feed&utm_source=rss) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3216 "2014-05-16T17:18:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Do the people of Sicily and the people of Rome speak different languages or do they speak different dialects? On this one, it’s generally accepted (e.g. [by the people at Ethnologue](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language)) that Sicilian (and other Italian languages like Venetian) _are_ [separate languages](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Italian) from the Regional Italian dialects of those same places. So it depends if the Sicilian in question is speaking Sicilian, or Sicilian-Italian (which I imagine most Sicilians code-switch between [easily](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_code-switching)). Ukrainian is not a dialect of Russian, it’s ridiculous to even suggest it. They’re only _partially_ mutually-intelligible - so’s Dutch and German, and no-one argues those are the same language. Hell, Ukrainian shares more vocab with Polish than it does with Russian. ---
**Author:** ![boxerfoley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f9ae1b/32.png) [@boxerfoley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boxerfoley)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3217 "2014-05-16T17:21:45Z")
Is Mr Soros happy with his investment now? Easy pickings of devalued land, coal, steel water electricity etc? I feel sorry for the locals who are suffering from a showdown between very dodgy powerbroking nations. Don’t be fooled by those in control. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3218 "2014-05-16T17:28:15Z")
Akhmatov made sense nine days before Russua annexed Crimea: > [@](#): > > Mr Akhmetov said that “We should build stronger relations with Russia, respecting each other’s position and countries. We wish Russia and the Russian people all the best and prosperity. In this situation, we should only use diplomatic language.If we do that, both countries will come out of this situation as winners and the EU can win too.” [http://www.steelguru.com/international\_news/Mr\_Akhmetov\_urges\_Mr\_Putin\_to\_respect\_Ukraine\_sovereignty\_of\_Ukraine/334453.html](http://www.steelguru.com/international_news/Mr_Akhmetov_urges_Mr_Putin_to_respect_Ukraine_sovereignty_of_Ukraine/334453.html) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3219 "2014-05-16T17:37:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > On this one, it’s generally accepted (e.g. [by the people at Ethnologue](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language)) that Sicilian (and other Italian languages like Venetian) _are_ [separate languages](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Italian) from the Regional Italian dialects of those same places. So it depends if the Sicilian in question is speaking Sicilian, or Sicilian-Italian (which I imagine most Sicilians code-switch between [easily](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_code-switching)). > Ukrainian is not a dialect of Russian, it’s ridiculous to even suggest it. They’re only _partially_ mutually-intelligible - so’s Dutch and German, and no-one argues those are the same language. Hell, Ukrainian shares more vocab with Polish than it does with Russian. Thanks MrDibble. It is hard to explain that comprehension of a similar but separate language does not make the language a one language. A language expert I read said that a Russian from outside Ukraine can learn Ukrainian with total immersion in a few months. But it is learned. Those growing up in Ukraine of course have the ability to speak and comprehend both languages. There are people in Ukraine that speak Ukrainian that do not speak or comprehend Russian if they have no need to do so. The languages are separate. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3220 "2014-05-16T17:58:07Z")
So you don’t think the steel workers are crushing the will of Russian speaking Ukrainians? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=160) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=162)