# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 162
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3221 "2014-05-16T22:41:12Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So you don’t think the steel workers are crushing the will of Russian speaking Ukrainians? No. Mr. Akhmetov is a Russian-Speaking industrialist and the richest man in Ukraine. He is an ally of Yanukovich and obviously has some influence in the region. The steel workers that work for him are not ‘crushing’ the will of Russian speakers - they are likely mostly all Russian speakers themselves. > [@](#): > > Enter Akhmetov, for whom Donetsk is almost a feudal seat. The Russian-speaking industrialist, who many Ukrainians think is unofficially behind the pro-Russian protests in Donetsk, has actually played a complex role. In the wee hours of Tuesday, the usually reclusive Akhmetov came out to speak with protesters in Donetsk, cursing in Russian and explaining to protesters that he felt for them but that “Donbass is Ukraine.” Akhmetov promised government forces would not storm the administration building and took some activists for talks with a deputy prime minister sent from Kiev. > > Akhmetov’s agenda differs from the government’s. When a protester complained about the Kiev-appointed governor, Akhmetov replied, “When we have an elected governor, the people will elect one. Now, unfortunately, there is a different situation. So we need to change the constitution.” The billionaire, who is still a member of the Regions Party, until recently headed by deposed President Viktor Yanukovych, wants broader autonomy for his home region, something in which Russia supports him and something the Ukrainian government is loath to grant. Leonid Bershidsky: Can Ukraine’s richest man help prevent a war? April 08, 2014|By Leonid Bershidsky [http://articles.mcall.com/2014-04-08/opinion/mc-ukraine-oligarch-war-web-20140408\_1\_interior-minister-arsen-avakov-crimea-ukrainian-foreign-ministry](http://articles.mcall.com/2014-04-08/opinion/mc-ukraine-oligarch-war-web-20140408_1_interior-minister-arsen-avakov-crimea-ukrainian-foreign-ministry) I thought most of you consider it a reality that Putin controls the will of the separatists. So what’s going on here? Is Putin losing his mind control over his Russian speaking zombies or are the steel workers his zombies too. After all the steel worker’s work for a billionaire who is seeking word for word what Putin has been seeking since the first signs of revolt in eastern Ukraine last month. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3222 "2014-05-16T22:51:24Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No. Mr. Akhmetov is a Russian-Speaking industrialist and the richest man in Ukraine. He is an ally of Yanukovich and obviously has some influence in the region. The steel workers that work for him are not ‘crushing’ the will of Russian speakers - they are likely mostly all Russian speakers themselves. Mr. Akhmetov is a corrupt oligarch who very much doesn’t want a capitalist/democratic Ukraine, since they would prosecute him for corruption, and doesn’t want his areas to join Russia because he’d be eaten by much bigger fish. So he’s trying to somehow tread the middle - keep the tensions stirred and not let them go too far. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3223 "2014-05-16T23:37:11Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No. Mr. Akhmetov is a Russian-Speaking industrialist and the richest man in Ukraine. He is an ally of Yanukovich and obviously has some influence in the region. The steel workers that work for him are not ‘crushing’ the will of Russian speakers - they are likely mostly all Russian speakers . So why are they backing the fascist pro-maidan Kiev government that’s out to oppress them? What’s going on here? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3224 "2014-05-17T00:37:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > On this one, it’s generally accepted (e.g. [by the people at Ethnologue](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language)) that Sicilian (and other Italian languages like Venetian) _are_ [separate languages](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Italian) from the Regional Italian dialects of those same places. So it depends if the Sicilian in question is speaking Sicilian, or Sicilian-Italian (which I imagine most Sicilians code-switch between [easily](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_code-switching)). > Ukrainian is not a dialect of Russian, it’s ridiculous to even suggest it. They’re only _partially_ mutually-intelligible - so’s Dutch and German, and no-one argues those are the same language. Hell, Ukrainian shares more vocab with Polish than it does with Russian. Which “Ukrainian” are you talking about? Ukrainian itself has many dialects and in some areas there is a dialect continuum between Ukraine and Russia. Beyond that, who in this thread is suggesting that Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3225 "2014-05-17T00:48:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Which “Ukrainian” are you talking about? Ukrainian itself has many dialects and in some areas there is a dialect continuum between Ukraine and Russia. Beyond that, who in this thread is suggesting that Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian? Ibn Warraq was. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3226 "2014-05-17T01:26:31Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So why are they backing the fascist pro-maidan Kiev government that’s out to oppress them? What’s going on here? I never said the pro-Maidan governnent were fascists. And I don’t see them backing the interim government at all. They are cslling for exactly the same thing Putin’s been calling for. Do you thing the pro-Maidan’s agree with Putin now? That would be good news wouldn’t it. I see the demonization of Mr. Akhmetov has begun on this thread: Terr at 06;51 pm today got the demonization going: > [@](#): > > Mr. Akhmetov is a corrupt oligarch who very much doesn’t want a capitalist/democratic Ukraine, since they would prosecute him for corruption, and doesn’t want his areas to join Russia because he’d be eaten by much bigger fish. So he’s trying to somehow tread the middle - keep the tensions stirred and not let them go too far. I wonder if the pro-Maidan oligarchs are true saints and guardians of capitalism and democracy and have dedicated their lives to improving humanity. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3227 "2014-05-17T01:47:37Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Ibn Warraq was. Yes, he is in search of something he calls intellectual consistency. Then John Mace argued that I was pretending… > [@](#): > > as if there is some huge ethno-linguistic divide between “Russian Speakers” and “Ukrainian Speakers”. This is a complete red herring from someone who wants to cheerlead the break-up of Ukraine for who-knows-what reason. And there is an ethnic divide despite the fact that many native Ukrainian tongue folks and many native Russian tongue folks have learned how to communicate with each other using a combination of both languages. The differences are not just in dialect. John Mace was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3228 "2014-05-17T04:41:10Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > And there is an ethnic divide despite the fact that many native Ukrainian tongue folks and many native Russian tongue folks have learned how to communicate with each other using a combination of both languages. The differences are not just in dialect. John Mace was wrong. No, I’m not wrong. Where did I say anything about a dialect? I noted that there is a dialectic continuum in places. Do you disagree with that? And this ethnic divide between Russian Speakers and Ukrainian speakers. Is it any different from any number of differences between peoples all over the planet? And is there some oppression that these “Russian Speakers” are experiencing that we should rally behind them in their throwing off of shackles? Or is this just the same old political squables that exist in pretty much every country on earth, but is not worth risking a civil war over? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3229 "2014-05-17T06:05:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, I’m not wrong. > > Where did I say anything about a dialect? I noted that there is a dialectic continuum in places. Do you disagree with that? > > And this ethnic divide between Russian Speakers and Ukrainian speakers. Is it any different from any number of differences between peoples all over the planet? And is there some oppression that these “Russian Speakers” are experiencing that we should rally behind them in their throwing off of shackles? Or is this just the same old political squables that exist in pretty much every country on earth, but is not worth risking a civil war over? I doubt they care whether we ‘rally behind them’… its their business not ours if they think violent removal of an elected president is a legitimate degree of oppression or not. America has not seen anything similar to Euro-Maiden violence since Nixon’s time. And even then the Constitution was not subverted as an elected president was forced to flee for his life. The political ‘squabble’ as you call it could be bigger than you want it to be to the separatists since you have chosen to favor their foes during this ‘squabble’. Its the pro-EU/US/ West side that overthrew an elected president by mob rule and violence. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3230 "2014-05-17T08:12:40Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > its their business not ours if they think violent removal of an elected president is a legitimate degree of oppression or not. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Its the pro-EU/US/ West side that overthrew an elected president by mob rule and violence. So let me get this straight: is it their business to complain about the violent removal of an elected president, or is it ours? Or rather, **yours**? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3231 "2014-05-17T08:56:02Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > So let me get this straight: is it their business to complain about the violent removal of an elected president, or is it ours? Or rather, **yours**? :rolleyes: The first is my viewpoint on the whether the U.S. government should meddle in their internal struggle and their relationship with the neighbor to the Northeast. I say no. The second is a statement of fact. It is not a complaint. Its not up to us to judge what the ‘victims’ of that ‘fact’ intend to do about it. And now U.S. meddling (_more sanctions against Russia_) would be detriment to the diplomatic process with the plan and action Mr. Akhmetov and the steel workers have begun to carry out. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3232 "2014-05-17T16:59:18Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So you don’t think the steel workers are crushing the will of Russian speaking Ukrainians? Why use inflammatory words like ‘crushing’ to describe a **negotiated deal** that could begin to help de-escalate the crisis and save lives and restore order. > [@](#): > > By NATALIYA VASILYEVA and VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV Associated Press May 15, 2014, 11:44 AM. KIEV, Ukraine — Steelworkers employed by Ukraine’s biggest tycoon have joined police on patrol in some disputed eastern Ukrainian cities, and the company said Thursday that its officials had struck a deal with police and pro-Russian separatists in one of the cities for the insurgents to leave occupied government buildings. [http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/putin-ukraine-pre-pay-gas-june-23732101](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/putin-ukraine-pre-pay-gas-june-23732101) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3233 "2014-05-17T20:16:17Z")
Leave or else. Nice deal. Lol. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3234 "2014-05-17T23:26:00Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Leave or else. Nice deal. Lol. What’s wrong with the negotiated deal in one city? The ‘or else’ must be the interim government starting a shooting war. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3235 "2014-05-17T23:32:20Z")
I have no idea what was “negotiated” and neither do you. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3236 "2014-05-18T00:45:46Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I have no idea what was “negotiated” and neither do you. Some protesters agreed through negotiations to peacefully leave the government buildings that they had been occupying behind barricades. Are you upset that a deal did not arrive with the cracking of protesters heads by manly steel workers? I’m beginning to suspect that the steel workers, miners and and all other working class people in the eastern regions are on the same page as the rebels with regard to autonomy for their region but the over-riding unity is on economic issues. Here in the US organized labor is so weak we don’t think of a ‘resistence’ movement to be joined by the forces of labor and workers. If this drive for political and economic autonomy from the centralized dysfunction in Kiev is part of a worker’s revolt against the oligarch’s as well as political foes such as the nation’s right wing nationalists, then there is a whole new way to look at it. One thing we need to figure out is Mr. Akhmetov’s role or his manager’s roles in what’s going on with the steel workers fanning out to restore order. One thing should be coming clear as we figure out more - Putin has little control over whats happening in the Ukraine east. The West needs to find a new boogyman. Will Labor Unions become it. You know socialists and commies running amok? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3237 "2014-05-18T01:03:52Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Some protesters agreed through negotiations to peacefully leave the government buildings that they had been occupying behind barricades. > > Are you upset that a deal did not arrive with the cracking of protesters heads by manly steel workers? No. Are you upset that you aren’t getting the artillery barrage you were dreaming of? > [@](#): > > One thing should be coming clear as we figure out more - Putin has little control over whats happening in the Ukraine east. The West needs to find a new boogyman. Will Labor Unions become it. You know socialists and commies running amok? Only in your fevered imagination did anyone here claim Putin was controlling all the events in Eastern Ukraine. The charge was that he was supporting and pushing the separatists. Glad to see the majority that didn’t support them have decided to enter the fray. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3238 "2014-05-18T03:37:57Z")
On 05-17-2014 at 08:45 PM I wrote: > [@](#): > > One thing should be coming clear as we figure out more - Putin has little control over whats happening in the Ukraine east. The West needs to find a new boogyman. Will Labor Unions become it. You know socialists and commies running amok? To which on 05-17-2014 at 09:03 PM CarnalK erroneously replied: > [@](#): > > Only in your fevered imagination did anyone here claim Putin was controlling all the events in Eastern Ukraine. The charge was that he was supporting and pushing the separatists. My imagination is not at all ‘fevered’. Carnalk’s statement is erroneous because anyone can easily see that I wrote, “Putin has little control over whats happening in the Ukraine east.” Where did I state that “\*\*anyone here \*\*claim Putin was controlling all the events in Eastern Ukraine”? Why does this type of error happen so often? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3239 "2014-05-18T04:17:08Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I have no idea what was “negotiated” and neither do you. Perhaps more reading about the complexities of regional diversity that exist in Ukraine will help you and others here gain some idea as to why that little deal which was negotiated between steel workers / steel mill managers and the anti-Maidan protestors for the latter to vacate occupied government buildings could start to deescalate the current political crisis in Eastern Ukraine. It could lead to resolving the “political hot potato” that has been tossed around since 1991. Ukraine’s ‘regionalism of convenience’ By Kataryna Wolczuk May 6 at 2:01 pm > [@](#): > > The following is a guest post from University of Birmingham political scientist Kataryna Wolczuk While Ukraine’s numerous sub-national identities have become particularly politicized recently, regional diversity in Ukraine has been a political hot potato since independence in 1991. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/05/06/ukraines-regionalism-of-convenience/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/05/06/ukraines-regionalism-of-convenience/) Renat Akhmetov is named in this link as being involved in ‘overt collusion’ with the separatist uprising here: > [@](#): > > The Maidan and the ousting of Yanukovych has triggered yet another wave of separatist demands in the eastern region, this time marked by physical violence, numerous deaths, kidnapping and the takeover of government buildings by militants. This separatist uprising has included overt collusion with Russia-backed activists, Russian forces, local law-enforcement units (e.g. police), regional politicians as well as region-based oligarchs, such as Renat Akhmetov. Russia’s direct involvement in stirring separatist sentiments has given the domestic dispute a geopolitical dimension too. > > In short, since Ukraine’s independence, regional differences and the specter of separation could be exploited for electoral gain, particularly by eastern elites. What does it mean if it is true that Mr. Akhmetov has been supporting and pushing the separatists just like many here think that Mr Putin is? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2014, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3240 "2014-05-18T04:54:01Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Why does this type of error happen so often? Maybe it’s you because I never get quite so grievously misunderstood. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=161) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=163)