# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 163
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3241 "2014-05-19T02:08:54Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Maybe it’s you because I never get quite so grievously misunderstood. Probably because you are consistent in your position, don’t use a lot of weasel words and attempt to spin especially when you are in error and you debate in a good faith fashion? Just a wild guess. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3242 "2014-05-19T02:37:56Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > My imagination is not at all ‘fevered’. Carnalk’s statement is erroneous because anyone can easily see that I wrote, “Putin has little control over whats happening in the Ukraine east.” Where did I state that “\*\*anyone here \*\*claim Putin was controlling all the events in Eastern Ukraine”? It must be asked again since no one can find it, Where did I state that “\*\*anyone here \*\*claimed Putin was controlling all the events in Eastern Ukraine”? ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3243 "2014-05-19T08:05:00Z")
That’s a fascinating question that will surely take the debate forward, **NotfooledbyW**. I’d love to answer it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3244 "2014-05-19T11:04:57Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > That’s a fascinating question that will surely take the debate forward, **NotfooledbyW**. I’d love to answer it. It is not taking the debate forward when posters make arguments against posters that have nothing to do with that are actually any arguments being made. I have presented some thoughts in the meaning of the steel workers involvement in trying to restore order in rebellious eastern Ukraine. What if this leads to the conflict as more a workers strike for better condition and increased autonomy from not only western central government control but also from the firm of capitalism that has produced so many billionaire oligarchs since the breakup of the Soviet Union. Any debate within you on that? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3245 "2014-05-19T11:35:09Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Are you upset that you aren’t getting the artillery barrage you were dreaming of? No. I will be quite happy if there are no steel workers battling separatists and since I am strongly opposed to the central authorities firing artillery into rebel held cities Sakaashvilli style I will be quite happy to see events unfold where that artillery barrage does not happen. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3246 "2014-05-19T12:10:38Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It must be asked again since no one can find it, > > Where did I state that “\*\*anyone here \*\*claimed Putin was controlling all the events in Eastern Ukraine”? Right here: > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I thought most of you consider it a reality that Putin controls the will of the separatists. So what’s going on here? Is Putin losing his mind control over his Russian speaking zombies or are the steel workers his zombies too. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3247 "2014-05-19T19:50:32Z")
Well that was painful. Meanwhile, I quite agree with Timothy Garton Ash’s argument in [this article](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/19/ukraine-crucial-vote-european-union?CMP=twt_gu). “If Ukraine can successfully hold a democratic presidential election across most of its territory next Sunday, then there is a chance – just a chance – that it can return to a peaceful, negotiated, constitutional process.” Needless to say, many forces will be trying their best to make sure this election is a disaster. Just 6 days to go. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3248 "2014-05-19T22:55:07Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Right here: That is not what carnalk cited and then made an error in his response. Here’s the post being discussed. > [@](#): > > On 05-17-2014 at 08:45 PM I wrote: > Quote: > One thing should be coming clear as we figure out more - Putin has little control over whats happening in the Ukraine east. The West needs to find a new boogyman. Will Labor Unions become it. You know socialists and commies running amok? > > To which on 05-17-2014 at 09:03 PM CarnalK erroneously replied: > Quote: > Only in your fevered imagination did anyone here claim Putin was controlling all the events in Eastern Ukraine. The charge was that he was supporting and pushing the separatists. > > My imagination is not at all ‘fevered’. Carnalk’s statement is erroneous because anyone can easily see that I wrote, “Putin has little control over whats happening in the Ukraine east.” Where did I state that “anyone here claim Putin was controlling all the events in Eastern Ukraine”? > > Why does this type of error happen so often? Here’s a clue - if someone says they ‘thought’ something to be true it is not a statement of fact, necessarily. I truly thought many here believe Putin is orchestrating the events in Ukraine, and that the anti-Maidan people are being worked up by Putin and the little green men. That is no excuse for carnalk’s response regarding fevered imagination. I did not say what he said I imagined. I said something else and it is posted above so you can see it. Now, Do you have any input involving the meat of the discussion? What is the significance of the news about the steel workers and the oligarch they work for? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3249 "2014-05-19T23:28:15Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Well that was painful. > > Meanwhile, I quite agree with Timothy Garton Ash’s argument in [this article](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/19/ukraine-crucial-vote-european-union?CMP=twt_gu). “If Ukraine can successfully hold a democratic presidential election across most of its territory next Sunday, then there is a chance – just a chance – that it can return to a peaceful, negotiated, constitutional process.” Needless to say, many forces will be trying their best to make sure this election is a disaster. Just 6 days to go. We have come a long way if you agree with this: “The result of that negotiation would have to be an unambiguously independent, sovereign Ukraine, but one with far-reaching devolution to its very different provinces.” That is what Putin has been requesting and it may resolve many things. From your link; > [@](#): > > . So the most important of all this week’s elections is the one that takes place in Europe but not in the EU. If Ukraine can successfully hold a democratic presidential election across most of its territory next Sunday, then there is a chance – just a chance – that it can return to a peaceful, negotiated, constitutional process. The result of that negotiation would have to be an unambiguously independent, sovereign Ukraine, but one with far-reaching devolution to its very different provinces. But I see no way to get to a truly and deeply federalized Ukraine without the massive protests and occupation of government buildings in Eastern Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3250 "2014-05-20T04:08:59Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That is not what carnalk cited and then made an error in his response. > Here’s the post being discussed. > > Here’s a clue - if someone says they ‘thought’ something to be true it is not a statement of fact, necessarily. I truly thought many here believe Putin is orchestrating the events in Ukraine, and that the anti-Maidan people are being worked up by Putin and the little green men. That is no excuse for carnalk’s response regarding fevered imagination. I did not say what he said I imagined. I said something else and it is posted above so you can see it. So your long winded defence here is yeah sure carnalk was right but he didn’t quote the post that proves it. Only in your fevered imagination is that convincing. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3251 "2014-05-20T04:55:18Z")
An interesting excerpt on what the steel workers and the separatists are doing Mariupol. > [@](#): > > The city hall was once covered with barricades and barbed wire, but now it’s a hangout for pro-Russian youth. > > Some of Akhmetov’s steel workers stop by to check on things. > > “We’re here to maintain order because we don’t want marauding and robberies,” a steelworker says. “Revolution is one thing but we cannot allow robbery.” > > Across town separatist political leader Denis Kuzmenko leaves his headquarters. He has a busy day ahead. > > He admits he needs help from the steel workers to secure the city, but insists he’s still in control. He says voting will not be allowed in Mariupol for Ukraine’s upcoming presidential elections on May 25. Authority uncertain in eastern Ukraine town Updated: 05/19/2014 8:39 pm EDT MARIUPOL, UKRAINE - Calm has settled over an eastern Ukrainian city where there was deadly violence earlier this month. Copyright 2014 CNN. All rights reserved. Posted on [WMBF | Myrtle Beach, Florence](http://m.wmbfnews.com/#!/newsDetail/2555858) ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3252 "2014-05-20T09:16:47Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > We have come a long way if you agree with this: > > “The result of that negotiation would have to be an unambiguously independent, sovereign Ukraine, but one with far-reaching devolution to its very different provinces.” We haven’t come a long way at all. I’m happy to accept devolution, have been since the crisis started. But that devolution has to be agreed upon at a national level, through rational debate, and only once there is a stable government in Kiev. Putin, your old friend Putin, claims to be in favour of devolution but has also been happy to take in Crimea. That seems like a contradiction to me ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3253 "2014-05-20T09:55:22Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > We haven’t come a long way at all. I’m happy to accept devolution, have been since the crisis started. But that devolution has to be agreed upon at a national level, through rational debate, and only once there is a stable government in Kiev. > > Putin, your old friend Putin, claims to be in favour of devolution but has also been happy to take in Crimea. That seems like a contradiction to me Why is there no stable governnent in Ukraine right now. They had an election then a protest which wanted nothing to do with rational debate. The losing side as a result of the protest and the violence is a minority in a country that would not ‘devolve’ by majority concensus because the real estate involved is too valuable. So your acceptance that there is no stable government in Ukraine, in addition to the fact that the instability was not the fault of Putin or the aggrieved minority living under an unstable government should explain to you why Crimea wanted out. The semi-autonomous status plus the lease agreement, plus majority protest victors in Kiev had no means to keep Crimea when the pre-protest stable government fell, is why Crimea is where it wants to be right now without bloodshed or your improbable rational debate. We’ve come a long way in that fearful Putin-land-grabbing hysteria has quite evenly slowed across the rest of Europe and among rest of the west’s Putin bashing pundits and politicians. And an oligarch/labor union negotiated settlement just may work out better than your never expected rational and national debate. Crimea was settled without war. So should the rest of the restive minority regions. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3254 "2014-05-20T11:19:55Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > And an oligarch/labor union negotiated settlement just may work out better than your never expected rational and national debate. You mean Akhmetov? It seems that the tide is turning against him, and the leader of the People’s Republic of Donyetsk has called for the nationalisation of his businesses. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3255 "2014-05-20T13:49:34Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That is not what carnalk cited and then made an error in his response. Either way, asked and answered. Happy to be of service. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Here’s a clue - if someone says they ‘thought’ something to be true it is not a statement of fact, necessarily. I truly thought many here believe Putin is orchestrating the events in Ukraine, and that the anti-Maidan people are being worked up by Putin and the little green men. Here’s a clue - [weasel words.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_words) > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Now, Do you have any input involving the meat of the discussion? What is the significance of the news about the steel workers and the oligarch they work for? Anything that gets the militias out of the picture is a positive step. The will of the people isn’t represented by hardliners occupying buildings, but rather through free and fair elections. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3256 "2014-05-20T15:05:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Anything that gets the militias out of the picture is a positive step. The will of the people isn’t represented by hardliners occupying buildings, but rather through free and fair elections. . Did you believe the will of the people was not represented in Crimea? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3257 "2014-05-20T15:06:54Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > . > Did you believe the will of the people was not represented in Crimea? As I’ve already written in this thread, I have no idea, and neither do you. That’s the inevitable result of flawed referendums under sketchy circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3258 "2014-05-20T15:40:07Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > You mean Akhmetov? It seems that the tide is turning against him, and the leader of the People’s Republic of Donyetsk has called for the nationalisation of his businesses. How can that happen if his employees, the miners and steelworkers might make the separatists crumble? > [@CarnalK](#): > > I can see why the separatists might crumble in the face of this. Miners and steelworkers are the backbone of that part of the country. What if the miners and steel workers go on strike - I believe Akhmetiv’s energy holdings provide electricity for most of Eastern Ukraine as well as Crimea and other countries as well. Electric Power comes mostly from coal and natural gas. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3259 "2014-05-20T18:51:33Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > How can that happen if his employees, the miners and steelworkers might make the separatists crumble? It’s probably not going to happen. Do you think the self appointed leader of the People’s Republic of Donyetsk has the power to nationalize this guy’s business? > [@](#): > > What if the miners and steel workers go on strike It would be bad? I guess? Why? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3260 "2014-05-20T19:56:00Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > As I’ve already written in this thread, I have no idea, and neither do you. Speak for yourself, not me. I don’t need a referendum to know that the will of the majority living in Crimea wanted to be re-united to the Russian Federation or at least out of the Kiev orbit of chaos and instability. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=162) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=164)