# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 164
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3261 "2014-05-20T20:06:42Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Speak for yourself, not me. I don’t need a referendum to know that the will of the majority living in Crimea wanted to be re-united to the Russian Federation or at least out of the Kiev orbit of chaos and instability. Do your powers work in North America as well? If so, we could avoid the cost and stress of voting here, and just consult you instead. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3262 "2014-05-20T20:15:41Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Speak for yourself, not me. I don’t need a referendum to know that the will of the majority living in Crimea wanted to be re-united to the Russian Federation or at least out of the Kiev orbit of chaos and instability. You have some fantastic powers. Listen, would you mind telling me if my girlfriend is angry with me? She said that “it’s nothing”, but I can sense that she’s annoyed about something. Surely your superior knowledge of people’s desires can help me ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3263 "2014-05-20T21:46:07Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Do your powers work in North America as well? > [@Batistuta](#): > > You have some fantastic powers. Really? You can’t see that the majority of the people in Crimea wanted to join Russia and/or separate from Ukraine? And PEW says “91% of Crimeans believe the recent referendum was free and fair”. What do you guys think about “PEW” Polls?? Pew Poll: Crimeans happy with “annexation” by Russia, believe referendum was free and fair May 12, 2014 : > [@](#): > > The latest survey in Ukraine by the Pew Research Center, reveals 91% of Crimeans believe the recent referendum was free and fair and only 4% believe Ukraine is correct in not recognising the referendum results. The poll numbers underline that the official results of the Crimea referendum are a true reflection of the will of the Crimean people. > > This Pew poll was based on face-to-face interviews between April 5-23, with 1,659 randomly selected adults across Ukraine and Russia and the results may come as a surprise to those who depend on Western corporate media for information about current affairs. > > It is worth noting that the Pew Research Center is internationally recognised for the accuracy of its polling. > **[Live Sydney Wla - Live Draw SDY Sidney Lotto Tercepat](https://humanrightsinvestigations.org/)** > > Live Sydney Wla Hari Ini merupakan sebuah Hasil Live Draw SDY Lotto Tercepat yang ada di dunia togel sekarang ini. Tidak hanya di negara sd, tetapi bahkan I really liked this part: “and the results may come as a surprise to those who depend on Western corporate media for information about current affairs.” ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3264 "2014-05-20T22:26:22Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That’s the inevitable result of flawed referendums under sketchy circumstances. Is PEW’s post-annexation poll similarly flawed? > [@](#): > > Crimeans are very satisfied with the leadership in Simferopol. Roughly eight-in-ten (83%) say Prime Minister Sergey Aksyonov is having a good influence on the way things are going in Crimea. Similarly, 82% give the government in Simferopol high marks. > > A majority of Crimeans (65%) also say the self-defense forces have had a positive impact on Crimea. Self-defense forces played a major role in the events leading up to the referendum vote in Crimea. On April 17, Russian President Putin said he had sent the Russian military into Crimea to support the self-defense forces prior to the election. > **[Chapter 1. Ukraine: Desire for Unity Amid Worries about Political...](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2014/05/08/chapter-1-ukraine-desire-for-unity-amid-worries-about-political-leadership-ethnic-conflict/)** > > Ukrainians widely agree that their country should remain a single, unified state. Only residents of Crimea are a clear exception, with overwhelming ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3265 "2014-05-21T00:47:04Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Anything that gets the militias out of the picture is a positive step. Pop goes the weasel. Now the pro-Maidan interim government is withdrawing troops from the two restive eastern regions. I have not seen evidence that separatist militias are out of the picture. Looks like the anti-Maidan militias are not going to be crushed prior to the national election. Where were these lawmakers a few weeks ago? Finally coming to their senses. **Kiev Pulling troops back from East Ukraine with Rada vote** Published on May 20th, 2014. Written by: Veterans Today > [@](#): > > Ukrainian troops deployed in the country’s east oshould immediately return to their bases, the country’s parliament said in a memorandum. The freshly-adopted document also urges constitutional reforms based on the decentralization of Kiev’s power. [http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/05/20/kiev-pulling-troops-back-from-east-ukraine-with-rada-vote/](http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/05/20/kiev-pulling-troops-back-from-east-ukraine-with-rada-vote/) More good news in the same link: > [@](#): > > **More autonomy** > The adopted document also urges for immediate constitutional reform that will grant more autonomy to regions – a key demand of the protesters in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Lugansk. It looks like Donetsk and Lugansk may get more autonomy thanks to the rebel militias stand rather than by reasonable debate. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3266 "2014-05-21T02:37:04Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Speak for yourself, not me. I don’t need a referendum to know that the will of the majority living in Crimea wanted to be re-united to the Russian Federation or at least out of the Kiev orbit of chaos and instability. You would be wise to learn that what you think or wish is real is not necessarily what actually is real. But, fortunately for you, we do have a [forum](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=12) for expressing such sentiment. It’s not this forum, though. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3267 "2014-05-21T03:23:52Z")
> **[Despite Concerns about Governance, Ukrainians Want to Remain One Country](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/)** > > A clear majority of Ukrainians agree that their country should remain a single, unified state, according to a pair of new surveys conducted by the Pew I wouldn’t be reflexively dismissive here John Mace. NFBW kinda has some backing there.(that’s the PEW report cited in the article he linked) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3268 "2014-05-21T03:58:46Z")
On 05-12-2014 at 07:07 AM I wrote: > [@](#): > > By setting up their own government and military structure, are the anti-Maidan Russian-speakers doing any thing different than the Iraqi Kurds did when they split off the northern provinces from Iraq? The first response to that question came from XT on 05-12-2014 at 09:53 AM: > [@](#): > > Funny how the vote (another over 90% in favor :p) flies in the face of the polls that had been conducted by Pew, no? I mean, in the polls, they were looking at figures of between 60-70% in favor of staying in the Ukraine…and now, with the vote, they are getting 90+% in favor of ‘independence’. That’s some turn around. Guess those pro-Russian groups were REALLY successful in getting out the word and turning around the vote, right? Keep on cheer leading there, NFBW. Do you consider your above response to my question to be in good faith? I don’t see you addressing my question that you cited? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3269 "2014-05-21T13:39:47Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Really? You can’t see that the majority of the people in Crimea wanted to join Russia and/or separate from Ukraine? And PEW says “91% of Crimeans believe the recent referendum was free and fair”. > > What do you guys think about “PEW” Polls?? > Pew Poll: Crimeans happy with “annexation” by Russia, believe referendum was free and fair May 12, 2014 : > > [Live Sydney Wla - Live Draw SDY Sidney Lotto Tercepat](http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2014/05/12/pew-poll-crimeans-happy-with-annexation-by-russia-believe-referendum-was-free-and-fair/) > > I really liked this part: “and the results may come as a surprise to those who depend on Western corporate media for information about current affairs.” Uh, are you really happy to rely on the Pew survey? Because, as you know, the same source found an overwhelming majority of Eastern Ukranians did not want seperation from Ukraine - which kinda undermines, like, all of your other arguments in this thread! 😕 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3270 "2014-05-21T13:42:51Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > [Despite Concerns about Governance, Ukrainians Want to Remain One Country | Pew Research Center](http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/) > > I wouldn’t be reflexively dismissive here John Mace. NFBW kinda has some backing there.(that’s the PEW report cited in the article he linked) I’m dismissive of anyone who says they don’t need evidence. Doesn’t matter if they are correct or not. A stopped clock is “correct” twice every day. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3271 "2014-05-21T13:49:57Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > [Despite Concerns about Governance, Ukrainians Want to Remain One Country | Pew Research Center](http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/) > > I wouldn’t be reflexively dismissive here John Mace. NFBW kinda has some backing there.(that’s the PEW report cited in the article he linked) People are poking fun at how he claims to arrive at his conclusions, not at the conclusions themselves. It is made extra-hilarious by his reliance on the Pew survey. As everyone already knows, that survey found (a) that the majority of Crimeans favoured seperation; and (b) that the majority of non-Crimeans, including Russian-speaking Eastern Ukrainians, did _not_ favour seperation. He seemingly hasn’t figured out that by relying on the first bit to support his position, he is fatally wounding his position in respect of the second bit. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3272 "2014-05-21T15:02:33Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > You have some fantastic powers. > > Listen, would you mind telling me if my girlfriend is angry with me? She said that “it’s nothing”, but I can sense that she’s annoyed about something. Surely your superior knowledge of people’s desires can help me Stop leaving wet towels lying on the bathroom floor after you finished showering. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3273 "2014-05-21T16:54:19Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > People are poking fun at how he claims to arrive at his conclusions, not at the conclusions themselves. > > It is made extra-hilarious by his reliance on the Pew survey. As everyone already knows, that survey found (a) that the majority of Crimeans favoured seperation; and (b) that the majority of non-Crimeans, including Russian-speaking Eastern Ukrainians, did _not_ favour seperation. He seemingly hasn’t figured out that by relying on the first bit to support his position, he is fatally wounding his position in respect of the second bit. Oh, I get that - but on this point he seems correct. I’m more curious if **Rune** is going to re-think Madeline Albright’s ability to run an impartial polling company. He earlier said we couldn’t trust Pew because of her position there. And the majority wishing to stay united isn’t so overwhelming as to dismiss the minority views. Nor are the trust of Kiev government polling numbers particularly warming. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3274 "2014-05-21T17:43:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Oh, I get that - but on this point he seems correct. I’m more curious if **Rune** is going to re-think Madeline Albright’s ability to run an impartial polling company. He earlier said we couldn’t trust Pew because of her position there. > > And the majority wishing to stay united isn’t so overwhelming as to dismiss the minority views. Nor are the trust of Kiev government polling numbers particularly warming. According to the survey, a whopping 18% of Eastern Ukrainians want to allow regions to secede (an even-less whopping 14% for Ukraine as a whole - which, apparently, includes Crimea). I’m okay with “dismissing” that particular “minority view”, based on those numbers (assuming they are sound). Since when did less than 1 in 5 get to decide the fate of the country? To repeat, that is less than one in five in the affected area. Why, even 2/3 of self-identified Russian speakers don’t want to allow regions to secede. The idea hasn’t even got a majority of the alleged affected minority on board with it. As for trust in the current government - it is a caretaker, interim government pending elections. It does not pretend to be anything else. The question will be whether this government makes a serious attempt at free and fair elections, or attempts the Russian trick. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3275 "2014-05-21T18:21:59Z")
You really think 18% (27% of Russian speakers) is so insignificant as to dismiss it? I am not saying the minority gets to decide, but it’s fairly ignorant to laugh it off. The “trust in the government” issue will come in to sharper focus as we see how the election is handled, I think we agree. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3276 "2014-05-21T18:46:49Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You really think 18% (27% of Russian speakers) is so insignificant as to dismiss it? I am not saying the minority gets to decide, but it’s fairly ignorant to laugh it off. About [12% of US population](http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=faf6925e50a8f46f4566d68d15c9ed87)want US to pay reparations to Black Americans. I think laughing it off is the right reaction. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3277 "2014-05-21T19:13:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Uh, are you really happy to rely on the Pew survey? Because, as you know, the same source found an overwhelming majority of Eastern Ukranians did not want seperation from Ukraine - which kinda undermines, like, all of your other arguments in this thread! 😕 What arguments of mine does this PEW poll undermine? Please post an argument that PEW undermines. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3278 "2014-05-21T19:30:55Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You really think 18% (27% of Russian speakers) is so insignificant as to dismiss it? I am not saying the minority gets to decide, but it’s fairly ignorant to laugh it off. > > The “trust in the government” issue will come in to sharper focus as we see how the election is handled, I think we agree. 18% of the population is not just a minority, it is a small minority. To put this into perspective, in the US, a full 17% of citizens in current US states would vote to secede from their current states, and 11% would vote to secede from the US! > **[17% Would Vote to Secede and Form New State](https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/september_2013/17_would_vote_to_secede_and_form_new_state)** > > Some residents in Maryland, California, Michigan and Colorado are looking to secede from their respective states, and nearly one-out-of-five Americans think that's a good idea. A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds... Oddly, no-one takes these positions at all seriously. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3279 "2014-05-21T19:33:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > About [12% of US population](http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=faf6925e50a8f46f4566d68d15c9ed87)want US to pay reparations to Black Americans. I think laughing it off is the right reaction. a) That article doesn’t say that. 89% of 12%=10% b) That’s less than 18% c) That poll was conducted by the “Reparations Research and Advocacy Group” ie, less trustworthy than Pew d) Just because you can laugh it off doesn’t mean it’s not ignorant to laugh it off ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3280 "2014-05-21T19:34:56Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > a) That article doesn’t say that. 89% of 12%=10% 85% of [14%](http://blackdemographics.com/). But who’s counting. > [@](#): > > d) Just because you can laugh it off doesn’t mean it’s not ignorant to laugh it off Well no one takes it seriously, that’s for sure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=163) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=165)