# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 169
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3361 "2014-05-25T00:22:22Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Look, it clearly IS bullshit. John Mace is wrong about “99.9 percent of Americans didn’t want to join”, I believe the majority of Texans did want to join, but you are at least as wrong. > > [http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/hawaii-petition/](http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/hawaii-petition/) > > So whatever clever argument you have riding on this, you better choose another comparison. It is impossible that my two statements were wrong. Unlike here is why: (A) Hawaii was settled by non-native whites. Those settlers voluntarily joined the union as I said. (B) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3362 "2014-05-25T02:06:30Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > True. Every once in a while I think that you might actually be able to review your own work and see the flaws when they are pointed out. > > You have demonstrated, once again, that you cannot. > I apologize for encouraging your errors. I pointed exactly to your error by citing the exact text. You have not correctly pointed out a flaw in my work. I guess we can get back to the topic now. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3363 "2014-05-25T02:11:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The vote the Hawaiians were give was: become a state or stay a territory. Again as explained. I did not state that the indigenous people ‘chose’ voluntarily to become or join a US territory. This statement is true: _(All states in the US joined the union voluntarily. That was not the case for Crimea to Ukraine.)_ Now you are down to one state… Hawaii. And that does not work out for you either. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3364 "2014-05-25T02:27:45Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It is impossible that my two statements were wrong. Unlike here is why: > > (A) Hawaii was settled by non-native whites. Those settlers voluntarily joined the union as I said. > > (B) Wow. That’s not quite the reality. Unlike reality, one could say. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3365 "2014-05-25T02:59:53Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > When you have time, explain to us the relevance of your US comparison First off I will show you that it became part of an ongoing discussion among several posters. And it was Mace, on the notion of ‘fairness’ for a localized referendum in Crimea and the Eastern Regions of Ukraine, who is the one making a comparison of what the US would do as what he thinks is ‘fair’ for anti-Maidan Ukrainians and Crimeans. Here’s how the discussion on what is fair went: On 05-21-2014 at 04:11 PM\*\* Carnalk wrote \*\*a point that I very much agree with: > [@](#): > > I would say that the poll results suggest that the referendum wasn’t as unfair as we would like to think. The results of both are pretty darn close to each other. But then on 05-21-2014 at 04:42 PM \*\*Malthus responded to Carnalk \*\*with what I strongly disagree: > [@](#): > > This is an error - you can’t judge the fairness of the process by polling the results. > Take the example of a genuinely popular dictator throwing out democracy. The “results” may be identical to a fair vote, but that’s not the point - the point is that voting is a repeating process, not “winner take all, forever”. > > In the case of a this referendum, it is the process that was unfair - a hurried referendum held under the guns of invaders and insurgents could not possibly be fair, even if their cause is genuinely popular. So on 05-21-2014 at 05:24 PM \*\*I replied \*\*to Malthus with this: > [@](#): > > It was never fair that the Ukraine constitution would not allow a ‘local only’ referendum. Then on 05-21-2014 at 06:15 PM \*\*John Mace tells us \*\*his opinion that there is nothing ‘unfair’ going on in a nation where he does not live: > [@](#): > > The United States does not allow a “local only” referendum to break away. Most countries don’t, and for good reason-- they don’t want to happen what is happening right now in Ukraine. There is nothing “unfair” about it. This of course meant to me that Mace is determining what is fair for Ukraine and Crimea etc by what is supposedly ‘fair’ in the US and other countries. So I challenged that point with several points. On 05-21-2014 at 07:01 PM \*\*I wrote \*\*in response to Mace \*06:15 PM Post > [@](#): > > The Constitution that tied Crimea to the central authority of Ukraine was unfairly and undemocratically dropped when Yanukovich was violently deposed and forced to flee. > > All states in the US joined the union voluntarily. That was not the case for Crimea to Ukraine. > > Most well established democracies do not allow mob rule to over turn the president and government. Then on 05-22-2014 at 09:12 AM **John Mace accused me of making up BS and he posted his erroneous statement** : > [@](#): > > 99.9% of the people in the US never agreed to join the US. The rest is recent and ongoing. If I have to summarize that for you too, I will do it when I have the time. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3366 "2014-05-25T03:11:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Wow. That’s not quite the reality. Unlike reality, one could say. I hit the submit replu button by mistake… A big win for you eh? ala Ibn Style. What is your response to point A. (A) Hawaii was settled by non-native whites. Those settlers voluntarily joined the union as I said. Tell us if you don’t think ‘white settlers’ voluntarily voted to join Hawaii to the Union? Remember the statement I made did not refer to indigenous peoples all across the New World and the Hawaiian Islands as having voluntarily joining to belong to US territories. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3367 "2014-05-25T03:19:27Z")
Did you read the link I posted? White business men, not what most would describe as settlers, aided by American diplomats and U.S. marines overthrew a government and installed a “join America” government. This isn’t simply not letting the natives vote. You are just frigging wrong up down and left right. This is some dumbass side point that you are clearly wrong about yet you’ll chase it down the rabbit hole this far? Bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3368 "2014-05-25T03:34:35Z")
So, what is option B? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3369 "2014-05-25T03:41:29Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Again as explained. I did not state that the indigenous people ‘chose’ voluntarily to become or join a US territory. > > This statement is true: \*(All states in the US joined the union voluntarily. No, that is not true. As noted, Hawaii had was not given the choice to separate, as was the situation in Crimea. Your analogy fails unless Crimea had a vote to choose only between being a region or Province of Ukraine and being a territory. That was not the case. Your analogy is BS. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3370 "2014-05-25T03:53:54Z")
Wait. It seems John and I have different thoughts on the purpose of this comparison. I thought it had to do with how Crimea joined Ukraine not how it just joined Russia. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3371 "2014-05-25T03:57:55Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Did you read the link I posted? White business men, not what most would describe as settlers, aided by American diplomats and U.S. marines overthrew a government and installed a “join America” government. This isn’t simply not letting the natives vote. You are just frigging wrong up down and left right. This is some dumbass side point that you are clearly wrong about yet you’ll chase it down the rabbit hole this far? Bizarre. So it is your contention that if one and it is a big ‘if’ … one state out of fifty was ‘forced against its will’ to became a US State from a US territory… that my entire point is BS? That is weak. As weak as it can get. I cited the vote to join the Union and gave you the numbers. Only 8000 voted against. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3372 "2014-05-25T04:03:08Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Wait. It seems John and I have different thoughts on the purpose of this comparison. I thought it had to do with how Crimea joined Ukraine not how it just joined Russia. It started this way… On 05-21-2014 at 04:11 PM Carnalk wrote a point that I very much agree with: > [@](#): > > I would say that the poll results suggest that the referendum wasn’t as unfair as we would like to think. The results of both are pretty darn close to each other. Key words to me at least was your reference to not as ‘unfair’ as we would llike to think … That’s in reference to the April PEW Poll… ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3373 "2014-05-25T04:07:01Z")
Yes. Your point is BS. Even if we choose to ignore the other places that didn’t vote to become American territory, your point is still bullshit with that one exception. Now that you know, please move on. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3374 "2014-05-25T04:16:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, that is not true. As noted, Hawaii had was not given the choice to separate, as was the situation in Crimea. Your analogy fails unless Crimea had a vote to choose only between being a region or Province of Ukraine and being a territory. That was not the case. > > Your analogy is BS. As I explained earlier… the point is the Russians that settled into or took-over the majority in Crimea going back to the days of Catherine the Great \*\*were not given \*\*a chance to voluntarily ‘join themselves to Ukraine’ in 1954 or 1991 and be separated from their Russian identity when they ended up told to adhere to Ukraine’s eventually screwed up Constitution this year. The Settlers of Hawaii / white businessmen / US Marines and all who voted in the referendum in Hawaii were given a chance to vote to become a US State. They had a choice to go from US Territory to joining themselves permanently to the US Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3375 "2014-05-25T04:17:09Z")
And you continue to conflate becoming a State with becoming part of America. Alaska may have become a State by choice but it became part of America through a purchase. Puerto Rico may eventually become a State but it became part of America through the Spanish-American war. You see the distinction? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3376 "2014-05-25T04:28:31Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yes. Your point is BS. Even if we choose to ignore the other places that didn’t vote to become American territory, your point is still bullshit with that one exception. Now that you know, please move on. Your post makes no sense at all. I’ve never referred to how North American wilderness plus the Hawaiian Islands became American territories. That has nothing to do with my original statement that you are calling bullshit. You make no sense. I guess we will have to move on. My three key points as to the unfairness of rejecting a local referendum for separation in Crimea are as valid now as it was the minute I wrote them: On 05-21-2014 at 07:01 PM I wrote in response to Mace \*06:15 PM Post The Constitution that tied Crimea to the central authority of Ukraine was unfairly and undemocratically dropped when Yanukovich was violently deposed and forced to flee. All states in the US joined the union voluntarily. That was not the case for Crimea to Ukraine. Most well established democracies do not allow mob rule to over turn the president and government. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3377 "2014-05-25T04:36:05Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Your post makes no sense at all. I’ve never referred to how North American wilderness plus the Hawaiian Islands became American territories. That has nothing to do with my original statement that you are calling bullshit. You make no sense. I guess we will have to move on. > > My three key points as to the unfairness of rejecting a local referendum for separation in Crimea are as valid now as it was the minute I wrote them: > On 05-21-2014 at 07:01 PM I wrote in response to Mace \*06:15 PM Post > > The Constitution that tied Crimea to the central authority of Ukraine was unfairly and undemocratically dropped when Yanukovich was violently deposed and forced to flee. > > All states in the US joined the union voluntarily. That was not the case for Crimea to Ukraine. > > Most well established democracies do not allow mob rule to over turn the president and government. I bet you are in a very small minority of people who think I made no sense even among those who disagreed. Sort of sorry they’re all banned. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3378 "2014-05-25T04:48:59Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > And you continue to conflate becoming a State with becoming part of America. Alaska may have become a State by choice but it became part of America through a purchase. Puerto Rico may eventually become a State but it became part of America through the Spanish-American war. You see the distinction? The statement you keep referring to as BS was not addressing how territories became part of America. I have explained that plenty of times. It was wilderness… Most indigenous peoples that were nomadic hunter gatherers were overcome by Christian Civilization whenever Europeans ‘discovered’ them centuries ago. That has nothing to do with my statement Perhaps this will help you… So on 05-21-2014 at 05:24 PM I replied to Malthus with this: It \*\*was never fair \*\*that the Ukraine constitution would not allow a ‘local only’ referendum. In one of several ways it was not fair ‘because’ the ethnic Russians who settled into Crimea over the years from the days of Catherine the Great had a history and cultural identity with Russia not Ukraine. They did not voluntarily join themselves to Ukraine in any kind of democratic or elective sense. They became ‘tied’ to the constitution of a different cultural identity and different language when they were given to Ukraine in 1954. They could not know then that the Soviet Uniion would break up and they automatically became a state joined all but permanently to Ukraine. And that is because they could not have a local only referendum on their status as a state in Ukraine. They did not submit to Ukraine’s constitution voluntarily as all fifty US States did. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3379 "2014-05-25T04:54:29Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I bet you are in a very small minority of people who think I made no sense even among those who disagreed. Sort of sorry they’re all banned. I don’t accept that determination of fact is a done by majority rule alone. There needs to be some basis for it besides a popularity contest. You make no sense with your consistent reference to how wilderness and Hawaii became territories. That is factually inconsistent with what my point about all this has been. So you have people that support you in making no sense. It means nothing. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3380 "2014-05-25T05:04:37Z")
Forbes is high-fiving with Putin bashers all over the place over the consensus that Putin ‘has lost’ the Ukrainian ‘east’. > **[Six Reasons Why Putin Seems To Have Lost In Eastern Ukraine](https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/23/six-reasons-why-ukraine-seems-to-have-won-against-putin/)** > > The noted Russian civil rights activist and political analyst, Lilia Shevtsova, wrote on her Facebook page that Vladimir Putin has “buried the New Russia project in a copper urn.” I give six reasons why the tide has definitely turned against the... I think they are so bullish on kicking Putin in the ass they want Ukraine to start thinking about taking Crimea back. right here: > [@](#): > > Unfinished business: The Crimean annexation is not something Ukraine should let go without a fight [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=168) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=170)