# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 171
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3401 "2014-05-26T10:38:48Z")
I’d **love** to re-start a discussion we had three months ago. Really. Just wait for my reply, all right? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3402 "2014-05-26T12:21:07Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > How is that different than early colonies like New York. Are you saying the NYC did not have businessmen, diplomats and soldiers when the natives were cast aside to establish New York as a colony and then as a state. Your logic does not add up in the broad scheme of things. Hawaii was a sovereign nation that had formal diplomatic ties with the US and there were no white settlers to speak of, more like plantation owners. So now why don’t you explain why they are similar, with real history not gross generalities. Then please explain how Puerto Rico being annexed after the Spanish-American war constitutes freely joining the US. Then explain why Russia selling Alaska to the US is more legitimate than Russia giving Crimea to Ukraine. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3403 "2014-05-26T12:26:32Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > I’d **love** to re-start a discussion we had three months ago. Really. Just wait for my reply, all right? We didn’t have a discussion three months ago. I asked you a question and you did not reply. That’s fine. In light of current events you now say the Maidan bloc with the chocolate tycoon’s election victory is a partial victory. So is Putin partially losing now and in your framework of US vs Russia brinkmanship does that mean Putin is having a partial defeat? Just curios? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3404 "2014-05-26T12:50:36Z")
Does everyone accept the US:Hawaii history contained in this link? [http://history.state.gov/milestones/1866-1898/hawaii](http://history.state.gov/milestones/1866-1898/hawaii). One excerpt: > [@](#): > > Sanford B. Dole, president of the newly formed Provisional Government of Hawaii, sent a delegation to Washington in 1894 seeking annexation, but the new U.S. President, Grover Cleveland, opposed annexation and tried to restore the Queen. Dole declared Hawaii an independent republic. Spurred by the nationalism aroused by the Spanish-American War, the United States annexed Hawaii in 1898 at the urging of President William McKinley. Hawaii was made a territory in 1900, and Dole became its first governor This all happened prior to 1945. For carnalk, there is no case to be made where, in post WWII context, the President of the US transferred, as a gift or any other reason, the Islands of Hawaii that had cultural and trade ties to the USA, to a third party nation that did not want cultural and trade ties to the USA. I asked you to do the math a few posts back. I guess you don’t wish to do it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3405 "2014-05-26T13:02:02Z")
I don’t have to “do the maths” anymore than I have. Your statement that all the States joined America voluntarily has been shown wrong. Now you want me to do maths on if America could give away a State post-WW2? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3406 "2014-05-26T13:27:55Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Your statement that all the States joined America voluntarily has been shown wrong. You keep saying it, but you do not provide the actual ‘text and backup’ that shows it. And I believe you are down to Hawaii being the one state that makes \*‘all states voluntarily joined the union’ \* to be wrong. The facts I am presenting about Hawaii’s transition to statehood show that you are wrong about that too. But that you would cling to an argument that you believe makes one out of fifty states to be great cause to call my statement bs, shows a high degree of desperation on your your part to be right somehow. As to your point: > [@](#): > > Then please explain how Puerto Rico being annexed after the Spanish-American war constitutes freely joining the US. I have not stated that Puerto Rico \*\*freely joined the US \*\*to become a territory. They have freely voted to become a state though, I believe in 2012 after several attempts. Perhaps you are equally confused with respect to Hawaii. Hawaii is a bit different from the wilderness on the North American continent because it had a from of Monarchy. But your notion that it could have remained a sovereign nation during European imperial and expansionist times must also be part of your confusion. That link I posted up thread starts off with this. > [@](#): > > Annexation of Hawaii, 1898 > > America’s annexation of Hawaii in 1898 resulted from economic integration and the rise of the United States as a Pacific power. It also extended U.S. territory into the Pacific. For most of the 1800s, leaders in Washington were concerned that Hawaii might become part of a European nation’s empire. During the 1830s, Britain and France forced Hawaii to accept treaties giving them economic privileges. In 1842, Secretary of State Daniel Webster sent a letter to Hawaiian agents in Washington affirming U.S. interests in Hawaii and opposing annexation by any other nation. He also proposed to Great Britain and France that no nation should seek special privileges or engage in further colonization of the islands. In 1849, the United States and Hawaii concluded a treaty of friendship that served as the basis of official relations between the parties. So I am correct. There was ‘economic integration’ between Hawaiians and the US. But as to your ‘sovereignty’ point. Hawaii was likely to be ‘taken’ by the French or the Brits during this time period. My statement is factual including regarding the State of Hawaii: (All states in the US joined the union voluntarily. That was not the case for Crimea to Ukraine.) You will note that I\*\* did not \*\*write that all territories of the US became territories voluntarily as decided by the indigenous population and that was not the case for Crimea to Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3407 "2014-05-26T13:37:06Z")
A vote for Statehood is a vote for more local governance - not for joining America. You are in error. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3408 "2014-05-26T14:03:58Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > A vote for Statehood is a vote for more local governance - not for joining America. You are in error. No. That is false. There are fifty stars on the flag. The stars represent states. The territories are not considered states. To become a state there had to be a petition to\*\* join the union\*\*. That was conducted by elections of delegates or by referendum or by both. Hawaii had a referendum to \*\*join the union \*\*by an overwhelming margin of votes. My statement did not say… joining America. Any nation can ‘join America’ in certain endeavors. My statement specifically used the phrase **‘join the union’.** Here it is again. You can’t seem to address it as written. (All states in the US\*\* joined the union \*\*voluntarily. That was not the case for Crimea to Ukraine.) ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3409 "2014-05-26T14:10:20Z")
Still don’t know where this USA-Crimea comparison is supposed to take us. The world is full of countries whose regions never chose to join. Does that mean that the regions should hold improvised, illegal referenda under the watchful eye of the Russian armed forces? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3410 "2014-05-26T14:42:28Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Still don’t know where this USA-Crimea comparison is supposed to take us. > > The world is full of countries whose regions never chose to join. Does that mean that the regions should hold improvised, illegal referenda under the watchful eye of the Russian armed forces? My post 3362 shows you what the USA-Crimea comparison is about. Perhaps if I divide it in half you will begin to get it. It revolves around the question of fairness of whether Ukraine should have allowed Crimea to have a local only referendum on its status. And just a post or two above carnalk is ignoring my request to do the math. The math is US territories involves only two parties at the time when parts or all of them became states. It was a voluntary act to join the union. Crimea had no such similar voluntary act and they were transferred by one state to which they were aligned to another state to which they were not aligned and that mis-alignment would later turn out to cause great problems that we have seen come to a head the past six months. > [@](#): > > On 05-21-2014 at 04:11 PM Carnalk wrote a point that I very much agree with: > > > [@](#): > > > > I would say that the poll results suggest that the referendum wasn’t as unfair as we would like to think. The results of both are pretty darn close to each other. > > But then on 05-21-2014 at 04:42 PM Malthus responded to Carnalk with what I strongly disagree: > > > [@](#): > > > > This is an error - you can’t judge the fairness of the process by polling the results. > > Take the example of a genuinely popular dictator throwing out democracy. The “results” may be identical to a fair vote, but that’s not the point - the point is that voting is a repeating process, not “winner take all, forever”. > > > > In the case of a this referendum, it is the process that was unfair - a hurried referendum held under the guns of invaders and insurgents could not possibly be fair, even if their cause is genuinely popular. > > So on 05-21-2014 at 05:24 PM I replied to Malthus with this: > > > [@](#): > > > > It was never fair that the Ukraine constitution would not allow a ‘local only’ referendum. > > Then on 05-21-2014 at 06:15 PM John Mace tells us his opinion that there is nothing ‘unfair’ going on in a nation where he does not live: > > > [@](#): > > > > The United States does not allow a “local only” referendum to break away. Most countries don’t, and for good reason-- they don’t want to happen what is happening right now in Ukraine. There is nothing “unfair” about it. > > This of course meant to me that Mace is determining what is fair for Ukraine and Crimea etc by what is supposedly ‘fair’ in the US and other countries. So I challenged that point with several points If you are truly interested I was responding to Mace on the matter of ‘fairness’ when I wrote three statements of fact that several are trying to dismiss as mostly bs. ON 05-21-2014 ay 07:01 PM I wrote the first three statements of fact and one opinion based upon those facts: \*The Constitution that tied Crimea to the central authority of Ukraine was unfairly and undemocratically dropped when Yanukovich was violently deposed and forced to flee. \*All states in the US joined the union voluntarily. That was not the case for Crimea to Ukraine. \*Most well established democracies do not allow mob rule to over turn the president and government. \*\*I speak of fairness for the majority of Crimeans in the context of the chaos and unconstitutional conduct of Ukraine’s majority population and their elected leaders. \*\* I do see the dreaded word for some of my adversaries in there. “context” ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3411 "2014-05-26T15:12:20Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > \*The Constitution that tied Crimea to the central authority of Ukraine was unfairly and undemocratically dropped when Yanukovich was violently deposed and forced to flee. > > \*All states in the US joined the union voluntarily. That was not the case for Crimea to Ukraine. > > \*Most well established democracies do not allow mob rule to over turn the president and government. > > \*\*I speak of fairness for the majority of Crimeans in the context of the chaos and unconstitutional conduct of Ukraine’s majority population and their elected leaders. \*\* So… say in February of 1981 when a military coup in Spain threatened the position of its elected government. Would an independence referendum in Catalonia, organised two weeks in advance, and with French troops on the ground, have been all right? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3412 "2014-05-26T15:56:00Z")
He can’t be reasoned with on this point. Crimea being gifted to Ukraine is so unconscionable that they forever more had moral authority to separate. Doesn’t matter what happened anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3413 "2014-05-26T17:31:50Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > He can’t be reasoned with on this point. Crimea being gifted to Ukraine is so unconscionable that they forever more had moral authority to separate. Doesn’t matter what happened anywhere else. I didnt say it was morally unconscionable that Crimea was gifted to Ukraine. You must be thinking of someone else. I said in response to Mace declaring it was **fair** to constitutionally force Crimea to be nearly airtight tied to the violent chaos taking shape in Kiev, because the United States doesn’t let US states have local referendums either. I then pointed out that US states joined the union voluntarily and Crimea did not join Ukraine voluntarily. If a state was coerced into joining the Union I would also agree that it would be fair to have a localized referendum to leave if any state thought it in their best interest to leave. You know, if a president they voted into office ends up getting removed from office by a violent mob of 20,000 that tried to take over the Capitol building and White House. Crimea is where its majority wants to be and the matter is closed as far as history and geography is concerned. The argument that it was unfair to Ukraine is a matter for sore losers to whine about. But the issue of calling my factual statement bs is not reasonable at all. No one has provided a single state out of the fifty US states that did not voluntarily join the union. And must have essentially accepted that all but perhaps Hawaii did join the Union voluntarily. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3414 "2014-05-26T17:41:07Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > So… say in February of 1981 when a military coup in Spain threatened the position of its elected government. Would an independence referendum in Catalonia, organised two weeks in advance, and with French troops on the ground, have been all right? Wouid their be sufficient support in Catalonia to make the transfer peacefully as it was in Crimea? Would there be no civil war afterward? Do the French have a treaty to keep 25,000 troops in Catalonia to protect a major military installation? Other factors could certainly apply but doing so peacefully is a major consideration on what is fair. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3415 "2014-05-26T17:43:26Z")
It’s not a matter of being “fair” or “unfair”. “Fairness” has nothing to do with this. It’s just history. And you clearly never learned about the Louisiana Purchase in High School if you think folks in those lands “chose” to become part of the US. And you keep referring to “wilderness” and “nomadic hunter gatherers” when much of the US was settled and inhabited by agriculturalist, not “hunter gatherers”. The only “hunter gatherers” that existed before Europeans showed up were in the Pacific Northwest, and even then it stretches the term to call them that. I suggest reading some books on US history. You would find that experience very enlightening. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3416 "2014-05-26T18:12:32Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No one has provided a single state out of the fifty US states that did not voluntarily join the union. And must have essentially accepted that all but perhaps Hawaii did join the Union voluntarily. You are twisting words so much. Alaska was purchased. It became a State much later. You can’t say it decide to join, it was already joined when it voted to become a state and when they voted they weren’t a State yet so the “State” didn’t decide to join. No realistic definitions of the words make your argument valid. And the circumstances of New York joining are so different from Hawaii, Alaska, and the States involved in the Louisiana purchase that your “isn’t it just the same” shows you to be utterly ignorant. So maybe just give up? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3417 "2014-05-26T18:19:23Z")
And there’s no “perhaps” about Hawaii. Your statement was shown to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3418 "2014-05-26T18:21:25Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You are twisting words so much. Alaska was purchased. It became a State much later. You can’t say it decide to join, it was already joined when it voted to become a state and when they voted they weren’t a State yet so the “State” didn’t decide to join. No realistic definitions of the words make your argument valid. > > And the circumstances of New York joining are so different from Hawaii, Alaska, and the States involved in the Louisiana purchase that your “isn’t it just the same” shows you to be utterly ignorant. So maybe just give up? No kidding. But the point that he’s missing is that IT SHOULDN’T MATTER ANYMORE. Especially in Europe, there were so many wars fought over the years that at this point we’re all better off if we just accept the borders as they are. Unless there is some real injustice that needs to be righted (gross human rights abuses, for example), let’s not risk another European war by some region unilaterally trying to break away from the country they are in. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3419 "2014-05-26T18:25:37Z")
Anyone interested in commenting on the Ukrainian election that just happened? Is this a game-changer, or not? This is funny: > [@](#): > > Channel One Russia just after the vote showed a video in which «the winner» of the presidential election in Ukraine was declared Dmytro Yarosh a candidate from party Right Sector. This was announced by anchorwoman on live TV recalling on “That data just appeared on the website of the Central Election Commission of Ukraine few minutes ago”. On a screenshot of the alleged site of the Central Election Commission of Ukraine where not indicated any number of protocols, nor the number of people who voted, was stated that Yarosh wins with 37% of votes. [101] Ukrinform, citing a source in the Security Service of Ukraine reported that this is not an mistake at all, but a provocation and an element of a failed Russian special forces special operations in an information war against Ukraine. SSU and Special State Communication together with the Ukrainian IT specialists discovered and defused a computer virus with was programmed to start during the counting of votes at the CEC and to show the winner Dmitry Yarosha with 37% or the equivalent of 19 million voters. The virus was neutralized for 40 minutes before the broadcasting at Channel One Russia and about neutralization didn’t noticed in Moscow. > **[2014 Ukrainian presidential election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2014#Provocations)** > > Oleksandr Turchynov (acting) > Batkivshchyna > Petro Poroshenko > Independent > Snap presidential elections were held in Ukraine on 25 May 2014 and resulted in Petro Poroshenko being elected President of Ukraine. Originally scheduled to take place on 29 March 2015, the date was brought forward following the 2014 Ukrainian revolution. Poroshenko won the elections with 55% of the vote, enough to win in a single round. His closest competitor, Yulia Tymoshenko, received 13% of the vote. The Central Elec... Oh, those wacky Russians. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3420 "2014-05-26T21:31:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Anyone interested in commenting on the Ukrainian election that just happened? Is this a game-changer, or not? > > This is funny: > > [2014 Ukrainian presidential election - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2014#Provocations) > > Oh, those wacky Russians. What’s even more funny is that Ukraine’s top IT official [“blamed Kaspersky antivirus software for failing to recognize the virus.”](http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/authorities-hackers-foiled-in-bid-to-rig-ukraine-presidential-election-results-349288.html) Now, I’m not convinced that Kaspersky was actually complicit, but you’d think that maybe, just maybe, Ukraine’s election commission wouldn’t depend on a _Russian_ antivirus company to safeguard the integrity of its election system. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=170) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=172)