# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 172
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3421 "2014-05-26T21:40:18Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > What’s even more funny is that Ukraine’s top IT official [“blamed Kaspersky antivirus software for failing to recognize the virus.”](http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/authorities-hackers-foiled-in-bid-to-rig-ukraine-presidential-election-results-349288.html) > > Now, I’m not convinced that Kaspersky was actually complicit, but you’d think that maybe, just maybe, Ukraine’s election commission wouldn’t depend on a _Russian_ antivirus company to safeguard the integrity of its election system. Don’t underestimate the difficulty of changing these legacy systems in time for the election. One would expect that, over time, the Ukrainians would wean themselves from dependency on Russia for such vital things. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3422 "2014-05-26T21:56:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Anyone interested in commenting on the Ukrainian election that just happened? Is this a game-changer, or not? How far up the list of ‘people who got to power in tense situations’ does Poroshenko go? Pretty high up in my opinion… But at least it seems that Yanukovych has said that he respects the outcome of the election. Somewhat unexpected if you ask me. The situation is tricky and even the tiniest mistake could prove very costly, but early signs show that he’s not scared of making big decisions. His first one after coming to power has apparently been to order air strikes against militia positions in Donetsk. He’s also said that his priority will be to get Crimea back. I have the feeling that Poroshenko is trying to show off the strength of the Ukrainian state, in order to gain the upper hand at the negotiating table with rebels in the east, and eventually Putin himself. I could be (almost surely am) completely mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3423 "2014-05-27T00:19:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And you clearly never learned about the Louisiana Purchase in High School if you think folks in those lands “chose” to become part of the US. John Mace makes more and more errors. Mace Error No 1. I do not think the original inhabitants of the Great North American frontier chose to be shoved out of the way by trappers, Christian missionaries, Evangelical preachers, School Marms, and every kind of white settler, farmer, sheep herder, cattle rancher, Pineapple grower, Gold miners, cowboy, US Cavalry, Gatling gun, Whisky, Euro-civilization that came at them. But that is history. Pre-WWII history. Mace Error No 2. I remember the Louisiana Purchase from 9th grade. And Mace has fooled himself this time because I have already addressed it right here. Mace has committed a doozy here. On 05-23-2014 at 10:09 PM **I wrote:** > [@](#): > > Now about those territories involved in the westward expansion beyond the original post-revolution states. They all joined the union voluntarily also. The Louisiana purchase was a purchase of more wilderness. That wilderness required white settlers mostly coming from the original states to civilize it. Vast territories did not transition to states. The general process to become a state from within a territory first required a boundary established and a population of settlers that reached 60,000. Then the settlers petitioned Congress for statehood. Mostly delegates were chosen to attend a constitutional convention to write and approve a state constitution. When those requirements were met Congress voted to approve statehood. Generally the approval of statehood by Congress was a celebrated event. Oh my god. I didn’t put a capital “P” on Purchase… “The \*\*Louisiana purchase \*\*was a purchase of more wilderness.” Mace Error No. 1 is carnalk’s 'error too: I did not state that the native Americans Indians / Hawaiians / Eskimos living in the territories ‘chose’ to join the union. They were not states at time of purchase or whatever means of acquisition took place. The vast territory acquired in the Louisiana Purchase did not become the state of Louisiana at the time of purchase. Perhaps Mace didn’t learn that in any school. So how was “Louisiana” the state we know to today ‘joined’ to the union when it was purchased. It did not exist. I explained the process of becoming a state three days ago. The native Americans had no say for most of it. All ‘joined’ states thus far were settled/overcome/taken over by mostly people from Europe and/or Americans from already ‘joined’ states. The rules during the early days primarily allowed propertied men to vote and few times women or slaves or freed slaves were allowed to vote. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3424 "2014-05-27T00:27:13Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > And there’s no “perhaps” about Hawaii. Your statement was shown to be wrong. You have an opinion and no facts made obvious by the reality that you cannot cite the post where my statement was ‘shown’ to be wrong. So whatever you think it was is not a valid point or argument. Mostly because territories were not joined to the Union when they were acquired. In most cases the states we recognize today did not exist when the territory the were carved out of was acquired. So you are wrong. accept it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3425 "2014-05-27T00:52:18Z")
We have made no errors. You simply choose to ignore the process of how the states came into being, focusing only on the last step. But that’s not the step where the territories became part of the US-- which is the actual analogy to Crimea. Crimea was “gifted” to Ukraine in the same way the Louisiana Territory was “purchased” by the US. It was an arrangement made without the consent of those in the territory. Whether or not it or any part of it became a state is irrelevant, because there was never an opportunity to exit the union-- either before or after statehood. Your logic for Crimea puts you in the same camp as those folks in Texas advocating for secession. That’s what we’re finding so funny. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3426 "2014-05-27T03:22:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Crimea was “gifted” to Ukraine in the same way the Louisiana Territory was “purchased” by the US. This is too funny. John Mace continues to make blunders. The principle of territorial integrity is generally accepted as maintaining borders as they were established at the end of WWII. > [@](#): > > Since the end of World War II the international political system has been organised around the notion of equal sovereignty of states, internal competence for domestic jurisdiction, and preservation of existing boundaries, and yet that these ideals have been violated frequently is incontestable (Elden 2006, 11). The concept of territory is traditionally understood to be a bounded space under the control of people, and in this context usually a state (Elden 2005). [http://www.exploringgeopolitics.org/Publication\_Scudder\_Jamie\_Territorial\_Integrity\_Modern\_States\_International\_Political\_System\_Jurisdiction\_Peace\_Westphalia\_Lebanon\_Somalia.html](http://www.exploringgeopolitics.org/Publication_Scudder_Jamie_Territorial_Integrity_Modern_States_International_Political_System_Jurisdiction_Peace_Westphalia_Lebanon_Somalia.html) Crimea was ‘gifted to Ukraine’ in 1954 with borders already established. . The Louisiana purchase occurred in 1803. A bit of time before WWII came to an end. > [@](#): > > The Louisiana Purchase stretched from the Mississippi River to the beginning of the Rocky Mountains. Official boundaries were not determined, except that the eastern border ran from the source of the Mississippi River north to the 31 degrees north. > > Present states that were included in part or whole of the Louisiana Purchase were: Arkansas, Colorado, Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Texas, and Wyoming. > **[Everything You Need to Know about the Louisiana Purchase](https://www.thoughtco.com/louisiana-purchase-1435017)** > > An overview and history of the Louisiana Purchase, including the Lewis and Clark expedition. I can see in that excerpt that ‘official boundaries’ were not determined during the purchase. I don’t see any part in this source where its claimed that the area purchased from France known as the Louisiana Purchase ever became ‘a’ state. It became many states. And Look Texas was one of those states that formed ‘after’ the purchase and then the people living there at the time ‘voted’ to join the Union. \*\*\*Just ask carnalk. \*\*\* On 05-24-2014 at 04:55 PM **carnalk wrote** : > [@](#): > > John Mace is wrong about “99.9 percent of Americans didn’t want to join”, I believe the majority of Texans did want to join, but you are at least as wrong. carnalk said the majority of Texans ‘did’ want to join. I agree with that. Why are you living in a world in 1803 when the borders of Texas were not established. Mexico thought it all belonged to them. The French sold the area to Thomas Jefferson and it took wars with Mexico until 1846 for Texans to **join the Union**. > [@](#): > > The Texas legislature approved annexation in July 1845 and constructed a state constitution. In October, Texas residents approved the annexation and the new constitution, and Texas was officially inducted into the United States on December 29, 1845.[2 > **[History of Texas (1845–1860)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Texas_(1845%E2%80%931860))** > > In 1845, the Republic of Texas was annexed to the United States of America, becoming the 28th U.S. state. Border disputes between the new state and Mexico, which had never recognized Texas independence and still considered the area a renegade Mexican state, led to the Mexican–American War (1846–1848). When the war concluded, Mexico relinquished its claim on Texas, as well as other regions in what is now the southwestern United States. > Texas' annexation as a state that tolerated slavery had caus... Also Texas had won independence from Mexico on their own and gaining it they wanted to join the United States. And Wikipedia tell us that Texas ‘joined’ the United States in 1845 Right here: > [@](#): > > Texas became an independent nation, the Republic of Texas. Attracted by the rich lands for cotton plantations and ranching, tens of thousands of immigrants arrived from the U.S. and from Germany as well. In 1845, Texas joined the United States, becoming the 28th state. Wikipedia: “In 1845, Texas joined the United States, becoming the 28th state” I realize John Mace could be a better reference than Wikipedia, however… I choose to stick with Wiki for actual history like this. > **[History of Texas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Texas)** > > Indigenous people lived in what is now Texas more than 10,000 years ago, as evidenced by the discovery of the remains of prehistoric Leanderthal Lady. In 1519, the arrival of the first Spanish conquistadors in the region of North America now known as Texas found the region occupied by numerous Native American tribes. The name Texas derives from táyshaʼ, a word in the Caddoan language of the Hasinai, which means "friends" or "allies." In the recorded history of what is now the U.S. sta The fi... It is very clear… that carnalk and Wikipedia agree with me. Texas was not ‘joined’ to the US Union until Texans voluntarily declared they wanted to join. It definitely is not as John Mace Lets look at John Mace’s error once again: > [@John\_Mace](#): > > We have made no errors. You simply choose to ignore the process of how the states came into being, focusing only on the last step. But that’s not the step where the territories became part of the US-- which is the actual analogy to Crimea. Texas and all the other states in the Louisiana Purchase were not “part” of the US on the date of the purchase. The borders of Texas had not been formed yet. They had not ‘joined’ the Union yet. Had Texas not ‘joined the Union’ in 1845 it would not have had to declare secession from the United States in 1861 and then see that declaration fail within the next few years. Lewis and Clark had not explored the Louisiana Purchase in 1803. Yet Mace has all those actual “states” becoming part of the United States of America on that date in 1803. But Texas did not become the 28th state until 1846. Its a sorry excuse for an argument that John Mace is taking a few of you down. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3427 "2014-05-27T03:31:21Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > This is too funny. John Mace continues to make blunders. The principle of territorial integrity is generally accepted as maintaining borders as they were established at the end of WWII. We might was well cut your wall of text right here because your cite does not say that. And your “cite” isn’t authoritative or determinative. And if you thought about it for a second, instead of trolling for cites you think agree with you, you’d realize how stupid that statement is. For instance, according to your interpretation, Pakistan is not a sovereign nation because it’s borders were established after WWII. We’ll be looking to see you at the next “Texas should secede” rally. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3428 "2014-05-27T03:39:49Z")
If your whole point is that we are only supposed to apply territorial interity and choosing to join to post WII then I am baffled why you brought up the States in the first place -especially when you are totally wrong. In non pedantic goal shifting bullshit news: [pro Russian militia took over Donetsk’s main airport](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10857071/Ukraine-launches-air-strike-against-rebels-who-seized-Donetsk-airport.html) and the new Pres is responding with force. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3429 "2014-05-27T03:44:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Your logic for Crimea puts you in the same camp as those folks in Texas advocating for secession. That’s what we’re finding so funny. That is false. There has been no coup as a result of protest violence in Washington DC for the Texans to advocate that as a cause or trigger for secession. Texas was not ‘gifted’ after WWII to another sovereign state with any vote among the people of Texas to object. My logic depends on factors or similar factors of great importance before you can accurately link me to the nut jobs in Texas that want to secede. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3430 "2014-05-27T03:48:15Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > If your whole point is that we are only supposed to apply territorial interity and choosing to join to post WII then I am baffled why you brought up the States in the first place -especially when you are totally wrong. I guess the UN was wrong when it established the State of Israel. He doesn’t realize that “existing” doesn’t mean “existing at the end of WWII”. Once sovereignty is established, it should be respected. Come to think of it, what’s the deal with Germany. It should be 2 separate countries, just like it was after WWII!!! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3431 "2014-05-27T03:54:02Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Texas was not ‘gifted’ after WWII to another sovereign state with any vote among the people of Texas to object. My logic depends on factors or similar factors of great importance before you can accurately link me to the nut jobs in Texas that want to secede. Crimea wasn’t “gifted” after WWII to another sovereign state either. The Ukraine wasn’t sovereign in 1954, but part of the USSR. The transfer of Crimea was a strictly administrative move at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3432 "2014-05-27T04:05:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > . . . The only “hunter gatherers” that existed before Europeans showed up were in the Pacific Northwest, and even then it stretches the term to call them that. . . . This is just a quick side-note, and not at all relevant to the main topic, but[the La Jollan/San Dieguito cultures of the San Diego area](http://historyandculture.com/writings/kumeyaay.html), including the Kumeyaay band, were (arguably) hunter-gatherers. They engaged in some horticulture, but not in agriculture. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3433 "2014-05-27T04:44:29Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > This is just a quick side-note, and not at all relevant to the main topic, but[the La Jollan/San Dieguito cultures of the San Diego area](http://historyandculture.com/writings/kumeyaay.html), including the Kumeyaay band, were (arguably) hunter-gatherers. They engaged in some horticulture, but not in agriculture. John Mace should not be the cited authirity on very much: > [@](#): > > The Native American Cheyenne Indian Tribe (also called the Suhtai, Sutaiothe or Tsitsistas) speak a language in the Algonquian linguistic family. The Cheyenne Indian Tribe is divided into two major groups, the Northern Cheyenne and the Southern Cheyenne who currently inhabit the Northern and Southern Great Plains, respectively. However, the Cheyenne Indians are not originally from the Great Plains and are thought to have originally lived in the area that is now Minnesota. These indigenous North Americans were not agriculturalists, but originally practiced a hunter-gatherer life style in the Great Lakes Region consisting of gathering wild rice and hunting buffalo (North American Bison). The introduction of the domesticated horse from Europe had a dramatic effect on their way of life, and the Cheyenne Indians are thought to have originated the “horse culture” which permitted them to travel long distances and adapt to living all year long in the Great Plains, where formerly they only hunted there in the Summer months > **[Cheyenne Indian Tribe](http://www.indian-tribes.org/cheyenne-indian-tribe.html)** > > The Cheyenne Indian tribe of North America was originally from Minnesota and are sometimes called the Suhtai, Sutaiothe or Tsitsistas. This Indian Tribe is divided into two > groups, the Northern and the Southern Cheyenne Indian Tribes. The... From that link (bolding mine) “These indigenous North Americans were not agriculturalists, but originally practiced a **hunter-gatherer life style** in the Great Lakes Region consisting of gathering wild rice and hunting buffalo” ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3434 "2014-05-27T05:13:43Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Crimea wasn’t “gifted” after WWII to another sovereign state either. The Ukraine wasn’t sovereign in 1954, but part of the USSR. The transfer of Crimea was a strictly administrative move at the time. Ukraine and Crimea each had seoarated established borders at the end of WWIi. So what you are telling me is that Ukraine never had soveriegn authority over Crimea in the first place at the end of WWIi. Ukraine’s claimed to Crimes must be a fraud then. Administrative move or gift, either way Crimea never had a say in joining up with Ukraine and accepting Ukraine soveriegnty over it. The US states all had some form of say in the joining themselves to the Union voluntarily. Crimea didnt have a voice after WWIi when their status was decided by one man basically. Mace’s problem is that all the states were formed by populations that were mostly already Americans by birth or revolution in the first thirteen states and then populatiins kept moving west in the history we all know. Of course immigrants from Europe and elsewhere were part of that westward expansion too. Natives had no say. But in practical terms all 48 states had their boundaries and statehood settled by the end if WWIi. Then two more voluntarily joined the union voluntarily after the end of WWIi. Territories could leave if they wanted to. Panama Canal Zone left after WWIi ended. Hawaii and Alaska didnt vote against joining the union. They chose to join like the 48 states before them did. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3435 "2014-05-27T05:38:08Z")
If land purchased in 1803 including the area where Texas became a state in 1846 was in fact joined to the US government or part of the US government why didnt the US government send US troops to fight the murderous Santa Anna and help Texas win that war. > [@](#): > > The US was neutral during the Texas rebellion, refusing to send US Army forces to help Texas. Although young men were recruited from the United States and supplies were purchased in the US, it was not the deciding factor in the surprise victory of Texas forces over the Mexican Army at San Jacinto. If the US had grand designs for acquiring Texas, the logical step would be to support the Texans since there was no reason to believe that Texas would be successful in their revolt without outside help. [http://americanaction.us/index.php/american-history/mexican-american-war/santa-anna-provokes-texas-revolution/](http://americanaction.us/index.php/american-history/mexican-american-war/santa-anna-provokes-texas-revolution/) Texas was not part of the Union at that time. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3436 "2014-05-27T05:50:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We might was well cut your wall of text right here because your cite does not say that. And your “cite” isn’t authoritative or determinative. Have you noticed that your side isn’t citing much of anything except what comes from the top of your heads. My cite said this: “Since the end of World War II the international political system has been organised around the notion of equal sovereignty of states, internal competence for domestic jurisdiction, and preservation of existing boundaries, and yet that these ideals have been violated frequently is incontestable.” That is my point in their words. Refute it if you can by something other than the top of your head. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3437 "2014-05-27T06:13:06Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > John Mace should not be the cited authirity on very much . . . I trust him infinitely more than I trust you, sir. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3438 "2014-05-27T06:21:50Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Have you noticed that your side isn’t citing much of anything except what comes from the top of your heads. > > My cite said this: > > “Since the end of World War II the international political system has been organised around the notion of equal sovereignty of states, internal competence for domestic jurisdiction, and preservation of existing boundaries, and yet that these ideals have been violated frequently is incontestable.” > > That is my point in their words. Refute it if you can by something other than the top of your head. First of all, what makes your cite authoritative? It’s just some link you found on the internet. Secondly, it doesn’t say what you say it does. It does NOT say that only boundaries established at the end of WWII are the only ones recognized. I already cited Pakistan and Israel as borders established after WWI, not to mention Germany. Is it your contention that none of those countries is sovereign? It is to laugh. You don’t even understand your own cite, not to mention that your cite is not authoritative. Remember when you cited a Truther? You were advised to read your cite and check your sources. I notice you haven’t learned either of those lessons. Your cite says that Crimea is part of Ukraine, despite your cheerleading it’s illegal break away. You have an interesting habit of citing sources that disprove your assertions. That’s probably because your assertions are BS. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3439 "2014-05-27T06:24:04Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I trust him infinitely more than I trust you, sir. That’s fine. Mace wrote this: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by John Mace . . . The only “hunter gatherers” that existed before Europeans showed up were in the Pacific Northwest, and even then it stretches the term to call them that. . . . Mace cited nothing as backup. He’s wrong according to this: > [@](#): > > However, the Cheyenne Indians are not originally from the Great Plains and are thought to have originally lived in the area that is now Minnesota. These indigenous North Americans were not agriculturalists, but originally practiced a hunter-gatherer life style in the Great Lakes Region consisting of gathering wild rice and hunting buffalo (North American Bison). > **[Cheyenne Indian Tribe](http://www.indian-tribes.org/cheyenne-indian-tribe.html)** > > The Cheyenne Indian tribe of North America was originally from Minnesota and are sometimes called the Suhtai, Sutaiothe or Tsitsistas. This Indian Tribe is divided into two > groups, the Northern and the Southern Cheyenne Indian Tribes. The... I am not asking you trust me. That is why I provide backup. But if you trust Mace is right on this - you trust is not well placed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3440 "2014-05-27T06:30:18Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > This is just a quick side-note, and not at all relevant to the main topic, but[the La Jollan/San Dieguito cultures of the San Diego area](http://historyandculture.com/writings/kumeyaay.html), including the Kumeyaay band, were (arguably) hunter-gatherers. They engaged in some horticulture, but not in agriculture. Your cite is contradictory: > [@](#): > > The Kumeyaay Indians practiced a hunter-gatherer type lifestyle and agriculture. You can’t be a hunter/gatherer and an agriculturalist. This is typical of sloppy reporting. Just because you hunt and collect wild plant foods doesn’t make you a hunter/gatherer if you are also practicing agriculture. You can find farmers in the US today who hunt, but that doesn’t make them hunter/gatherers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=171) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=173)