# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 175
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3481 "2014-05-29T10:24:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Where does it say “non-peaceful”. It doesn’t-- that is your bias. It says it right here: \*“demonstrators, who fought back with crude weapons, firearms, and improvised explosives.” \* Peaceful demonstrators don’t bring wespons and advance toward police killing nine of them to start a hopefully peaceful day. You cited this. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3482 "2014-05-29T10:50:40Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It says it right here: > > "demonstrators, who fought **back** There. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3483 "2014-05-29T13:54:39Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It says it right here: > > \*“demonstrators, who fought back with crude weapons, firearms, and improvised explosives.” \* Peaceful demonstrators don’t bring wespons and advance toward police killing nine of them to start a hopefully peaceful day. You cited this. Thank you. Nope. You claimed that non-peaceful protestors advanced on the government buildings. There is no indication that they were “non-peaceful” as they advanced on the buildings, only that they fought back after police started firing on them. With live ammunition. The question is who started the violence. We don’t know. Both sides claim the other side started it, and objective observers aren’t able to tell us who did. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3484 "2014-05-30T12:37:13Z")
[Vostok Battalion, a pro-Russian group, seize control of Donetsk Peoples’ Republic’s headquarters, plunging rebel movement in east into crisis](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10863933/Ukraines-rebels-in-crisis-after-Donetsk-coup.html) Interesting development. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3485 "2014-05-30T13:10:53Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > [Vostok Battalion, a pro-Russian group, seize control of Donetsk Peoples’ Republic’s headquarters, plunging rebel movement in east into crisis](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10863933/Ukraines-rebels-in-crisis-after-Donetsk-coup.html) > Interesting development. Note: the Vostok battalion is not a “pro-Russian group”. It is a Russian military unit, from Spetznaz forces, staffed mostly by Chechens, with Russian and Chechen officers. The coy pretense by Russians that the “rebellion” was all indigenous has been dropped. These are Russian troops on Ukrainian soil. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3486 "2014-05-30T13:19:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Note: the Vostok battalion is not a “pro-Russian group”. It is a Russian military unit, from Spetznaz forces, staffed mostly by Chechens, with Russian and Chechen officers. The coy pretense by Russians that the “rebellion” was all indigenous has been dropped. These are Russian troops on Ukrainian soil. How do you know that? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3487 "2014-05-30T13:29:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How do you know that? > **[Special Battalions Vostok and Zapad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Battalions_Vostok_and_Zapad)** > > Special Battalions Vostok and Zapad (Russian: Специальные батальоны "Восток" и "Запад", lit. "East" and "West") were two spetsnaz units of the GRU, the military intelligence agency of Russia, based in Chechnya. The overwhelming majority of the personnel were ethnic Chechens, while the command personnel were mixed ethnic Russians and Chechens. The Special Battalions were formed during the Second Chechen War as a force of Chechen volunteers under the direct control of the Russian government to perf... > **[Vostok batallion – Dzutsev’s Weblog](https://dzutsev.wordpress.com/tag/vostok-batallion/)** > > Posts about Vostok batallion written by Valery Dzutsati ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3488 "2014-05-30T13:37:25Z")
… by the way, if you look at photos published of “Vostok Battalion” fighters that show faces, anyone familiar with the ethnicities in Russia will tell you those are Chechens (or Ingush - somewhere from that area). ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3489 "2014-05-30T13:37:44Z")
But I thought the original Vostok battalion was disbanded (looking at the wiki link, yes they were). Could they not have just adopted the name (likely because they have a bunch of Chechen members)? eta: I have serious doubts this is a battalion under direct Russian control. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3490 "2014-05-30T13:42:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How do you know that? There are certainly lots of reports about it - I have no idea how reliable. Here is one. > **[Yes, There Are Chechen Fighters in Ukraine, and Nobody Knows Who Sent Them There](https://www.vice.com/en/article/yes-there-are-chechen-fighters-in-ukraine-and-nobody-knows-who-sent-them-there/)** > > Chechnya's president denied sending armed men to fight in Ukraine — but they are there anyway. There is no longer any doubt that Russians are doing the fighting. Rebel leaders openly admit as much. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10863933/Ukraines-rebels-in-crisis-after-Donetsk-coup.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10863933/Ukraines-rebels-in-crisis-after-Donetsk-coup.html) > [@](#): > > The purge came as republican leaders dropped all pretence of Russian involvement in the uprising, with rebel leaders announcing the repatriation of dozens of bodies of Russian fighters killed in Monday’s battle at the airport. > > Lorries carrying the bodies of 33 Russian citizens, who were amongst dozens of rebels killed, left Donetsk for Russia on Thursday evening. > > Casualties from Monday’s fighting were so heavy that fighters had to take over a refrigeration facility at a local factory when the main city morgue overflowed. > > The bodies of six fighters were laid in coffins waiting to be loaded on to the huge articulated refrigerator lorry that would carry them to the Russian border when The Daily Telegraph was granted access to the facility on Thursday. > > Workers used painted a huge red cross and the number “200” – Soviet-era military code for dead bodies in transit – on the roof and sides of the lorry, in a bid to ward off attacks by Ukrainian aircraft. > > The convoy, escorted by police, planned to carry the bodies to Rostov-on-Don, where they would be dispatched to families across Russia, rebel spokesmen organising the convoy said. > > Rebel leaders say the Russian fighters were all volunteers, not members of the regular Russian armed forces. They reiterated the hope that President Vladimir Putin would finally send troops to assist them. > > The open admission of the presence of foreign fighters marks a remarkable change of tune from the separatist leadership, which previously maintained that its forces were entirely made up of locals. [emphasis added] My take: the “indigenous Ukrainian rebels” were, in large part, made up of opportunists and looters. Their behaviour - essentially, as opportunistic thugs - was very quickly draining away support, even from the minority that legitimately supported them. Moscow, to retrieve the situation, or at least to impose some law and order, ordered their fighters - those they had infiltrated in fropm Russia, such as this mysterious “Vostok battalion”, which appears to be made up at least in part of Chechens - to stage a coup, clear out the looters and thugs (or at least, force them into obedience), and assert central, Moscow control. From now on, it is pretty clear to everyone, even the most blind partisan, that this isn’t an “indigenous uprising” or a “civil war” (assuming it ever was), but a Moscow-controlled invasion - which is now fighting against a Ukraine with an elected government. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3491 "2014-05-30T13:44:38Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > But I thought the original Vostok battalion was disbanded (looking at the wiki link, yes they were). Could they not have just adopted the name (likely because they have a bunch of Chechen members)? They were not “disbanded” per se. They were fully absorbed into Russian military. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3492 "2014-05-30T14:15:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > They were not “disbanded” per se. They were fully absorbed into Russian military. In that case one must wonder why news reports talk of “a pro-Russian group” instead of “the bloody Russian Army”. It all seems quite weird ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3493 "2014-05-30T14:25:11Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > In that case one must wonder why news reports talk of “a pro-Russian group” instead of “the bloody Russian Army”. It all seems quite weird Just like news reports spoke of the “self-defense groups” in Crimea, and afterwards Russia “admitted” (like it really was a surprise) that those were Russian troops. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3494 "2014-05-30T18:59:50Z")
The news talked pretty openly about Russian trucks, Russian license plates and Russian uniforms without insignia in Crimea. That is not being reported here. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3495 "2014-05-30T19:10:45Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The news talked pretty openly about Russian trucks, Russian license plates and Russian uniforms without insignia in Crimea. That is not being reported here. In this case, it appears that Russia is importing Chechens to do the fighting. There are multiple reports of this - including, most recently, that these groups have in effect taken over, clearing the indigenous “pro Russian” militia out of their HQ. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10864323/Ukraine-we-have-completely-cleared-rebels-from-parts-of-east.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10864323/Ukraine-we-have-completely-cleared-rebels-from-parts-of-east.html) No-one can pretend that these Chechens are local, or that they just spontaneously appeared. Can they? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3496 "2014-05-30T19:18:13Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > From now on, it is pretty clear to everyone, even the most blind partisan, that this isn’t an “indigenous uprising” or a “civil war” (assuming it ever was), but a Moscow-controlled invasion - which is now fighting against a Ukraine with an elected government. Are you saying that there is no popular support at all for the rebels in the regions concerned? That doesn’t jibe with all the reports I’ve read since this thing blew up. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3497 "2014-05-30T19:22:09Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] No-one can pretend that these Chechens are local, or that they just spontaneously appeared. Can they? [/QUOTE] 😛 Seriously? At this point in the thread, nothing would surprise me, and I’d be militantly non-shocked if NFBW could somehow expand his narrative to suggest that the Chechens were simply there vacationing or, perhaps, that they were grasped by the husks and carried there by African swallows, migrating through the area, or something along those lines. [QUOTE=CarnalK] The news talked pretty openly about Russian trucks, Russian license plates and Russian uniforms without insignia in Crimea. That is not being reported here. [/QUOTE] Probably one of the worst kept secrets evah. But then, they really only need plausible deniablity to stand up to the rigor of folks such as NFBW and that crowd, who are disposed to grasping any straw available to keep their narrative rolling smoothly in their own minds. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3498 "2014-05-30T19:45:29Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Are you saying that there is no popular support at all for the rebels in the regions concerned? That doesn’t jibe with all the reports I’ve read since this thing blew up. With Chechen soldiers taking power over there, any pretense at “popular uprising” is gone. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3499 "2014-05-30T19:47:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > With Chechen soldiers taking power over there, any pretense at “popular uprising” is gone. Which isn’t the same thing as saying there is no popular support, to be fair. I’m sure there is support for the ‘rebels in the regions concerned’, though it’s debatable as to just how popular it really is. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3500 "2014-05-30T19:51:04Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Are you saying that there is no popular support at all for the rebels in the regions concerned? That doesn’t jibe with all the reports I’ve read since this thing blew up. No - rather, it appears that popular support in the region (always a minority position - see Pew Poll) has been falling away yet further, because of lawlessness, thuggery, and looting on the part of the indigenous “self-defence forces”. The current fracas - namely, the take-over of the HQ by the obvioulsy-Russian imported fighters, who appear to be, in part, Chechen and so quite obviously _not_ “locals” - was at least in part intended to halt that slide in support (and increase in resentment), to restore (Moscow-imposed) military discipline, law and order. As it turned out, the HQ was allegedly stuffed with, well, stuff looted from the locals. Generally speaking, one does not increase one’s popularity by stealing from people, so the current move by Moscow-imported forces makes perfect sense - even as it undermines and renders quite laughable the notion that this is any longer an “indigenous popular uprising”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=174) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=176)