# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 177
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3521 "2014-06-01T04:30:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Firearms and IEDs? You say “cite,” I say “Cite?” > I would like to see a non-Pravda report of police dying prior to the use of live ammunition by the police. > > (Why would a mob carry IEDs, to begin with? Were they planning to explode at some point?) Ten police were killed on February 18th. See several photos with police in defensive positions with shields up in front of the Parliament. Here is one photo of police being hit with an explosive device shown here: The caption under it reads: > [@](#): > > A protester throws a device at riot police during continuing protests in downtown Kiev, Ukraine, 18 February 2014. Nine people have been killed in clashes between security forces and protesters, seven of them civilians, Ukrainian police say. Violence erupted in the Ukrainian capital after anti-government protesters broke through a police cordon in front of parliament. Protester marched toward the parliament to demand constitutional reforms that would curb the powers of President Viktor Yanukovych. Ukraine has been mired in political crisis since November after the government backed away from a trade agreement with the European Union and signed a 15-billion-dollar loan deal with Russia instead. (Credit: EPA) > **[Kiev - PHOTOS: Violent Clashes Escalate In Ukraine 14 Dead - VINnews](https://vinnews.com/2014/02/18/kiev-photos-violent-clashes-escalate-in-ukraine/)** > > Kiev – Ukraine’s political crisis escalated sharply Tuesday and police have moved in to clear the sprawling protest tent camp of anti-government demonstrators in Kiev’s Independence Square. Join our WhatsApp group Subscribe to our Daily Roundup Email... ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3522 "2014-06-01T12:55:12Z")
Try again, blogs count less than dirt for a cite. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3523 "2014-06-01T13:06:25Z")
And to boot: That’s an incendiary device, not an explosive one. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3524 "2014-06-01T17:14:05Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Try again, blogs count less than dirt for a cite. No you try again. The photos and captions are AP. > [@](#): > > An anti-government protester fires an improvised weapon during clashes with riot police outside Ukraine’s parliament in Kiev, Ukraine, Tuesday, Feb. 18, 2014. Thousands of anti-government protesters clashed with police in a new eruption of violence Tuesday. (Credit: ASSOCIATED PRESS) So is it ok/normal to attack police guarding the Parliament / Congress / Legislature with incendiary devices but not explosive devices where you live? ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3525 "2014-06-01T17:25:18Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So is it ok/normal to attack police guarding the Parliament / Congress / Legislature with incendiary devices but not explosive devices where you live? No, but preparing an explosive device takes a lot more preparation and level of commitment to violence than preparing a molotov cocktail. Molotov cocktails could have been prepared that afternoon, after things had already turned ugly. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3526 "2014-06-01T17:35:44Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Try again, blogs count less than dirt for a cite. No you try again: The photos and captions are from AP or EPA. If you don’t know what EPA is - here: European Pressphoto Agency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > **[European Pressphoto Agency](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Pressphoto_Agency)** > > European Pressphoto Agency B.V. (EPA Images) is an international news and photo agency. > Images from all parts of the world covering news, politics, sports, business, finance as well as arts, culture and entertainment are provided by a global network of over 400 professional photographers and included in the EPA Images service. The EPA Images picture and video service is based both on the broad network of EPA's staff photographers all over the world and on the daily production of its member agenc... European Pressphoto Agency B.V. is an international news photo agency. Images from all parts of the … ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3527 "2014-06-01T18:21:39Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > No, but preparing an explosive device takes a lot more preparation and level of commitment to violence than preparing a molotov cocktail. Molotov cocktails could have been prepared that afternoon, after things had already turned ugly. They anti-government rioters came with ‘petrol bombs’ early in the fighting: > [@](#): > > Ukraine’s bloodiest day of political violence in its post-Soviet history yesterday followed a march on Parliament by anti-government protesters, who met serried ranks of police armed with tear gas and stun grenades. Masked demonstrators, many of them hardline nationalists, hurled petrol bombs and stones. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10647512/Ukraine-crisis-flames-and-stun-grenades-as-police-launch-all-out-assault-on-protesters-in-Kiev.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10647512/Ukraine-crisis-flames-and-stun-grenades-as-police-launch-all-out-assault-on-protesters-in-Kiev.html) > [@](#): > > The first clashes broke out at at least three separate locations in the city centre as marchers converged on parliament at about 11 am. > > Police used stun grenades, tear gas and baton round in a bid to hold protesters back, while protesters set fire to true barricades and attacked with stones and fireworks, local media reported. > > Footage from the city centre showed activists throwing riot officers out of a police van which was later set on fire. > > As fighting escalated the central office of President Viktor Yanukovych’s Party of the Regions was also set ablaze. > > By midday local time the parliamentary session had still not been able to begin, and deputies were said to be waiting in the corridors of the building while fighting raged on the streets outside. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10647512/Ukraine-crisis-flames-and-stun-grenades-as-police-launch-all-out-assault-on-protesters-in-Kiev.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10647512/Ukraine-crisis-flames-and-stun-grenades-as-police-launch-all-out-assault-on-protesters-in-Kiev.html) Before noon, rioters set fire to the Central office of Party of Regions. Would governments in Paris London or Washington DC put up with setting fire to government/ruling oarty offices , obstructing lawmakers, and pelting police with paving stones and Molotov cocktails - killing ten police during massive riots that began on February 18. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3528 "2014-06-01T20:01:18Z")
Either way, it’s still not a cite for an IED, which was your original assertion. And similar actions by protesters in the west aren’t met with snipers. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3529 "2014-06-01T20:13:08Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > And similar actions by protesters in the west aren’t met with snipers. Where have there been similar actions by protesters in the West? ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3530 "2014-06-01T20:15:53Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Where have there been similar actions by protesters in the West? Erm. Are you serious? The Catalan Parliament building was surrounded by protesters some months ago. They went on to harass Members of Parliament who headed towards the building (including a blind MP who had his guide dog on a leash). If I recall correctly molotov cocktails were thrown at the police on that same afternoon. And you know how many protesters were killed by police action? In fact, you know how many public officials even **considered** arming the police with live ammo? I’m sure you know the answer. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3531 "2014-06-01T20:20:31Z")
I’d say the LA riots in 92 were much worse. The police were armed. Hell, the national guard was deployed. The government still didn’t deploy snipers, even as they took sniper fire from rioters. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3532 "2014-06-01T20:46:13Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Either way, it’s still not a cite for an IED, which was your original assertion. You have not challenged my argument with your quibbling and nitpicking. And anyway as was pointed out before, it was TomnDebb’s source where I picked up the report of protesters using improvised explosives. See here; > [@](#): > > [41] Police fired guns, with both rubber bullets and, later, live ammunition (including automatic weapons and sniper rifles), while also using tear gas and flash grenades in an attempt to repel thousands of demonstrators, who fought back with crude weapons, firearms, and improvised explosives. I myself would not quibble with a reporter doing his or her job in the midst of that chaos over whether the weapons the protesters used to attack police guarding Parliament were incendiary or explosive because there could have been both. Just guessing but when a petrol bomb goes off if some vapor is involved it could be determined to be an explosion. I have heard expressions such as ‘the gas tank exploded on impact’ and then of course we know an incendiary condition could ensue. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3533 "2014-06-01T20:56:23Z")
If he was a reporter that mis-identified a weapon, he would not be the first. Even if you can find one or two folks who assembled a bomb, you haven’t really justified the methods used against the protesters. We’ve shown other incidents that can be compared that weren’t met with snipers. Mostly because snipers don’t seem to useful in controlling a riot, and probably make the situation worse. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3534 "2014-06-01T21:41:26Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Erm. Are you serious? > > The Catalan Parliament building was surrounded by protesters some months ago. They went on to harass Members of Parliament who headed towards the building (including a blind MP who had his guide dog on a leash). If I recall correctly molotov cocktails were thrown at the police on that same afternoon. > > And you know how many protesters were killed by police action? In fact, you know how many public officials even **considered** arming the police with live ammo? I’m sure you know the answer. [http://www.trutv.com/shows/most-shocking/videos/molotov-mayhem.html](http://www.trutv.com/shows/most-shocking/videos/molotov-mayhem.html) do you think this will convince NFBW? I wouldn’t bet on it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3535 "2014-06-01T22:32:53Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > I’d say the LA riots in 92 were much worse. The police were armed. Hell, the national guard was deployed. The government still didn’t deploy snipers, even as they took sniper fire from rioters. LA is not the US Capitol and the riots were not over demands to overthrow an elected national government and to change the Constitution of the entire United States. > [@](#): > > Widespread looting, assault, arson and murder occurred during the riots, and estimates of property damages topped one billion dollars. The rioting ended after soldiers from the California Army National Guard, the 7th Infantry Division, and marines from 1st Marine Division were called in to stop the rioting after the local police could not handle the situation. In total, 53 people were killed during the riots and over 2,000 people were injured.[2][3] > **[1992 Los Angeles riots](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots)** > > The 1992 Los Angeles riots (also called the South Central riots, Rodney King riots, or the 1992 Los Angeles uprising) were a series of riots and civil disturbances that occurred in Los Angeles County, California, United States, during April and May 1992. Unrest began in South Central Los Angeles on April 29, after a jury acquitted four officers of the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) charged with using excessive force in the arrest and beating of Rodney King. The incident had been video Th... This link says that 36 of the 53 that died in the LA riots were shot. Of that total eleven were shot dead by police and national guard. Your comparison is quite poor. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3536 "2014-06-02T00:42:15Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Erm. Are you serious? > > The Catalan Parliament building was surrounded by protesters some months ago. They went on to harass Members of Parliament who headed towards the building (including a blind MP who had his guide dog on a leash). If I recall correctly molotov cocktails were thrown at the police on that same afternoon. > > And you know how many protesters were killed by police action? In fact, you know how many public officials even **considered** arming the police with live ammo? I’m sure you know the answer. Do you mean this? > [@](#): > > On Tuesday, Parliament took on the appearance of a fortress as about 1,400 police officers ringed the building to keep back demonstrators. The organizers of the latest protest said in a statement that they had no plans to try to occupy Parliament, but instead wanted to surround the building to show that “democracy has been kidnapped” by inept Spanish politicians. > > Using their truncheons, the police scattered protesters in an effort to keep some approaches to the Parliament building open. By the evening, the police said that 10 people had been arrested and six had been injured. > > Catalonia is the third region to call an early election, with the Basque region and Mr. Rajoy’s home region of Galicia set to hold separate votes next month. It does not appear that police lines were breached, or any government buildings were occupied or set on fire, or any police being killed, or access to Parliament being disrupted. This was in September 2012. Is there a more recent and more violent protest? ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3537 "2014-06-02T02:52:50Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > This link says that 36 of the 53 that died in the LA riots were shot. Of that total eleven were shot dead by police and national guard. Your comparison is quite poor. No, I think it’s quite good, actually. It’s normal to shoot looters in the U.S., and L.A. had degenerated to shopkeepers defending their own property. The national guard still don’t deploy snipers. Partly through the riot’s political aim being poorly defined, the government in L.A. in 92 didn’t decide that it had lost all authority, so it didn’t resort to useless tactics such as the Yanukovych government had engaged in. The current government in Ukraine doesn’t think it’s lost all authority. They probably infer this due to the small number of pro-Russian protesters and the extreme measures the separatists employ, which are alienating the general public. In turn, it wisely limits its activity to trying to regain control of government property, and not sniping at protesters. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3538 "2014-06-02T03:09:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://www.trutv.com/shows/most-shocking/videos/molotov-mayhem.html](http://www.trutv.com/shows/most-shocking/videos/molotov-mayhem.html) > > do you think this will convince NFBW? I wouldn’t bet on it. Why would it convince anyone? Here’s. CNN report: > [@](#): > > updated 8:13 AM EDT 09.26.12 > Protesters, police clash in Madrid > By the CNN Wire Staff > Madrid, Spain (CNN) - Thousands of protesters fed up with the country’s austerity measures demonstrated here Tuesday outside the congressional building. > > Clashes between police and demonstrators in central Madrid’s Neptuno Square resulted in 28 people being hurt, two of them police officers, a police spokesman said. > > The spokesman said 22 people among the estimated crowd of 6,000 had been arrested. > > Read more: Spain to reveal pain on its books > > Demonstrators said police were shooting into the crowd with rubber bullets; the police would not comment. > > “We have you surrounded,” some demonstrators sang. “We have no fear.” > > At one point, Spanish police charged demonstrators with batons to prevent them from approaching the parliament, which was in session. > > Spain is facing an economic crisis with unemployment near 25%, and the protesters accused the government and the opposition alike of trying to solve the country’s financial woes on the backs of the people. > > Video from the scene showed police charging groups of protesters with their clubs, but such clashes were isolated. > **[Protesters, police clash in Madrid | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/europe/spain-protests/index.html)** > > Thousands of protesters fed up with the country’s austerity measures demonstrated here Tuesday outside the congressional building. Nothing like What happened in Kiev. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3539 "2014-06-02T03:30:04Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Why would it convince anyone? > > Here’s. CNN report: Ah. Proof that you didn’t click on the link at all. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3540 "2014-06-02T10:28:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah. Proof that you didn’t click on the link at all. I clicked on the link and it was videos on a bunch of riots that I couldn’t upload. Why not post a link to a written news report where some facts and details can be read? You have no ‘proof’ of anything. This is what pops up on that link MOST SHOCKING Students protesting in South Korea put their studies of revolution to use, building a wall of flames. WATCH MORE CLIPS [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=176) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=178)