# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 179
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3561 "2014-06-03T04:23:17Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Um, no…my (fucking) point is that, despite similar levels of violence from the protesters the South Korean government didn’t need to resort to a bloodbath. I cannot take your word that similar levels of violence from student protesters in S Korea matched the level of violence by protesters in Kiev. The protesters initiated and escalated the bloodbath that began on February. Police in Kiev were using three truck mounted water cannons on February 18. I’ve seen reports that two of their three units were overwhelmed by rioters and burned. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3562 "2014-06-03T04:42:47Z")
Read this report in full and focus on the report that six police died after being “shot” on February 18: > [@](#): > > Olha Bilyk, spokeswoman for the Kiev city police, told The Associated Press that six policemen died from gunshot wounds and 159 were wounded, including 39 who were shot. She also said seven civilians died, including three who were shot. [http://www.timesofisrael.com/nine-killed-in-ukraine-riots/](http://www.timesofisrael.com/nine-killed-in-ukraine-riots/) Who do you think shot the Police? Did any South Korean Student protesters shoot to kill Police. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3563 "2014-06-04T04:42:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > This would be funny if it weren’t so sad vis-a-vis Russia’s masterful involvement in Syria: > > [Russia calls UN meeting to seek Ukraine cease-fire](http://www.whig.com/story/25669104/russia-calls-un-meeting-to-seek-ukraine-cease-fire) Do you think the Kiev government should excercize restraint and seek a negotiated settlement with the anti-Maidan separatists in the east to avoid causing injury and death and destruction of property among the civilians that do not favor separtion from Ukraine? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3564 "2014-06-04T14:55:50Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Do you think the Kiev government should excercize restraint and seek a negotiated settlement with the anti-Maidan separatists in the east to avoid causing injury and death and destruction of property among the civilians that do not favor separtion from Ukraine? They are the government of Ukraine, not just Kiev. I know you want to make it seem like they’re not, but they are. I think neither you nor I have enough information to tell the government in Kiev what they should or shouldn’t do. But I’m not seeing anything particularly sympathetic about the separatists, and I’m not seeing much in the way of them wanting to resolve things peacefully. There is no comparison between the Ukrainian Government and Assad, who just masterfully got himself re-elected with 97% of the vote. Remarkably similar to the vote in Crimea. What an amazing coincidence! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3565 "2014-06-04T16:13:41Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So XT or anyone else from the pro-Maidan court, was it ok for protesters to set Yanukovich’s Party of Regions HQ on fire during the morning of starting riots of February 18? Was it a deliberate act by the Maidan group? A lone act by a couple of people on the fringe? An accident responding to police violence? > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Can you find a way to blame police for causing them to do it? I can certainly find reasons for the protesters to come to the police expecing violence since the police had already begun killing them. The _Berkut_ were killing people as early as January 22, urged on by the Russians. Prior to February 18, they had already killed at least five people in attacks on protesters, typically using snipers. [List of people killed during Euromaidan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_during_Euromaidan) Your claims that the protesters initiated the lethal violence are nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3566 "2014-06-04T22:27:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They are the government of Ukraine, not just Kiev. I know you want to make it seem like they’re not, but they are. “… not just Kiev” is your erroneous phrase not mine. You know nothing about what I want. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3567 "2014-06-04T23:38:36Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The _Berkut_ were killing people as early as January 22, urged on by the Russians. How many Maidan protesters were on the square in January? How many protesters were killed by Snipers from January to the morning of February 18? Russians is quite a broad charge. Who specifically urged the Berkut to kill people in January? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3568 "2014-06-05T00:36:16Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > How many Maidan protesters were on the square in January? Why the parsing distinction? What difference does it make how many were ‘on the square in January’? > [@](#): > > How many protesters were killed by Snipers from January to the morning of February 18? Looks to me to be 1 directly and several more indirectly. Again, why is it important how many were killed by sniper and how many were killed by torture or some other method? Simply to make some sort of pedantic point concerning Tom’s ‘typically using snipers’ comment? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Russians is quite a broad charge. Who specifically urged the Berkut to kill people in January? Interesting that after it was disbanded (due to, you know, killing all those protesters, as well as other harsh draconian shit), the Crimean branch was folded neatly into the ‘Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs preserving its old name’ (from the [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkut_%28special_police_force%29) on this group). Of course, the PROTESTERS didn’t know or care who had ordered it done, just that the crack down had happened and many of them were killed, imprisoned, tortured and otherwise not being able to protest the 180 degree shift their elected government. But, I suppose, in your mind they should have been pondering this before they decided to get all violent and stuff, and maybe made some pedantically precise persnickety pusillanimous parsing points prior to ponderously piling on, precisely??? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3569 "2014-06-05T01:12:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I can certainly find reasons for the protesters to come to the police expecing violence since the police had already begun killing them That is not a reply to what I asked. Here it is again: _“Can you find a way to blame police for causing them to do it?”_ The ‘it’ is what you wish me to speculate could have been an accident. You know, how fire bombs are accidentally thrown into what just ‘happened’ to be the HQ of the Party of Regions (Yanukovich’s Party) on the morning of February 18. You know, as 20,000 protesters marched with bricks in hand, Moletov’s ready to be lit, to be thrown at the police blocking their way to the Parliament. And the reason the February 18 Maidan attacks on the police who were guarding the Parliament, it is being argued, is because you are convinced that these three people were killed by police snipers three weeks prior at the urging of the Russians. See post 3550: > [@](#): > > On 29 January two male activists, one younger and one older, were shot on Hrushevskoho Street and brought to a Kiev hospital. The latter died from the gunshot wounds the following day.[84] A UDAR MP accused police of shooting the two as a provocation.[85] > > In Zaporizhia the gas tank of his car was shot at, causing it to explode and the car to engulf him in flames. Police stated the murder may have been motivated by his participation in Automaidan.[32] > > [http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_...maidan#/search](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...maidan#/search) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3570 "2014-06-05T01:37:27Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > “… not just Kiev” is your erroneous phrase not mine. Do you dispute that they are the government of Ukraine? Is [Obama wrong?](http://news.yahoo.com/obama-gives-backing-ukraines-president-104724444.html;_ylt=A0SO80qeyY9Te28AC0ZXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB0NDZnaDI2BHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDQwMl8x) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3571 "2014-06-05T02:21:32Z")
> [@XT](#): > > What difference does it make how many were ‘on the square in January’? . Tens of thousands perhaps hundreds of thousands of protesters were on the square and you claim/admit that only one protester was shot and killed directly by a police sniper. i asked how many protesters were there, in order to bring context to TomnDebb’s inaccurate statement. This one; “Prior to February 18, they had already killed at least five people in attacks on protesters, typically using snipers.” Why must I accept an erroneous statement about ‘typical sniper killings’ in January from TomnDebb when there is no documented evidence that no more than two protesters actually died from bullet wounds prior to February 18. These two: > [@](#): > > On 29 January two male activists, one younger and one older, were shot on Hrushevskoho Street and brought to a Kiev hospital. The latter died from the gunshot wounds the following day.[84] A UDAR MP accused police of shooting the two as a provocation No one called it typical sniper shootings. TomnDebb was wrong to do so. TomnDebb perhaps could accept that these two were shot while part of a protesting anti-government crowd of tens of thousands, but by rogue police or not even government police at all. Perhaps anti-Maidan street thugs. Could it have been an ‘accident’, as T&D questioned me, whether the political party HQ could have ‘accidently’’ been set on fire where one staffer was killed on February 18. Why must the entire police force be blamed for the actions of a few if it could be proven that it was police that shot two activists on 29 January on Hrushevskoho Street out of a protest crowd in the tens of thousands? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3572 "2014-06-05T02:24:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you dispute that they are the government of Ukraine? > > Is [Obama wrong?](http://news.yahoo.com/obama-gives-backing-ukraines-president-104724444.html;_ylt=A0SO80qeyY9Te28AC0ZXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB0NDZnaDI2BHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDQwMl8x) No. And I didnt say they were not. You embellished my statement. You made another error. They add up you know. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3573 "2014-06-05T02:35:24Z")
But you admit protesters were killed first - before police dying? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3574 "2014-06-05T09:42:29Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > But you admit protesters were killed first - before police dying? I must not ‘admit’ anything of the sort. I have posted that fact from the very start. What is your attempt at making a point supposed to mean? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3575 "2014-06-05T10:51:59Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Your claims that the protesters initiated the lethal violence are nonsense. It was you that linked to a report that states that the protesters advanced on the Parliament and that was what started the violence in the morning of February 18. Is your source nonsense? ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3576 "2014-06-05T11:36:24Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It was you that linked to a report that states that the protesters advanced on the Parliament and that was what started the violence in the morning of February 18. Read the post you’re quoting. You’re conveniently ignoring a tiny little word before “violence”. Hint: starts with the letter ‘l’. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3577 "2014-06-05T12:41:02Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I must not ‘admit’ anything of the sort. I have posted that fact from the very start. What is your attempt at making a point supposed to mean? The point is quite obvious. The government started the deadly violence and focusing on who you think started it on February 18 is less important in assigning blame. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3578 "2014-06-05T13:05:44Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No. And I didnt say they were not. You embellished my statement. You made another error. They add up you know. No Error and no embellishment. And you ignored the question again. [Is Obama wrong?](http://news.yahoo.com/obama-gives-backing-ukraines-president-104724444.html;_ylt=A0SO80qeyY9Te28AC0ZXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB0NDZnaDI2BHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDQwMl8x) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3579 "2014-06-05T16:59:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No Error and no embellishment. And you ignored the question again. > > [Is Obama wrong?](http://news.yahoo.com/obama-gives-backing-ukraines-president-104724444.html;_ylt=A0SO80qeyY9Te28AC0ZXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB0NDZnaDI2BHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDQwMl8x) Why in the world would I think Obama is wrong: > [@](#): > > With the death toll mounting from fighting between Kiev’s forces and pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine, Obama met Poroshenko for the first time since his election last month and said he was impressed with what he found. > > “What Ukrainians said in the elections is that they reject that path. They reject violence,” and want the opportunity to determine their own future, Obama told reporters after meeting Poroshenko in the Polish capital. I think authorities in Kiev must act with military restraint against the rebellion in the east. So unless Porishenko decieved Obama and the rest of us regarding his plan to peacefully resolve the matter in the east as Putin has been calling for, I have to say that Obama is not wrong: > [@](#): > > Poroshenko, a billionaire confectionary magnate who now takes over a country in deep crisis, told reporters he was preparing to unveil a plan for “the peaceful resolution of the situation in the east” soon after his inauguration on Saturday. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3580 "2014-06-05T17:19:47Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The point is quite obvious. The government started the deadly violence and focusing on who you think started it on February 18 is less important in assigning blame. Apparently you believe an elected government has no legitimate means to repel mob and thug rule from taking over government property and obstructing government business. Arguing that the government started the massive levels of violence is absolute and utter nonsense: The two day bloodbath was clearly started by radical extremist armed and deadly anti-government radicals on February 18. But those radicals did not show up for the first time on Feb 18. > [@](#): > > Some stormed Kiev city hall on Sunday > On Sunday, several hundred thousand people took part in a march, defying a ban on rallies. > > There were clashes near the presidential building, with demonstrators firing flares and riot police using tear gas, batons and stun grenades. TV footage appeared to show officers beating reporters. > > The main opposition leaders condemned the violence, saying it was the work of “provocateurs”. There were also clashes on Sunday as Kiev protesters tried to topple a statue of Lenin. > > Some protesters stormed the city hall. One of them is the Russian opposition activist Pyotr Verzilov - husband of Pussy Riot punk group member Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, who is in jail in Russia. > > He told the BBC that the protesters were preparing to fight any attempt by police to evict them. > > Also on Sunday, activists invaded Trade Unions House, another government building in central Kiev, and set up their main headquarters there. Ukraine unrest: Protesters blockade government sites 2 December 2013 Last updated at 13:01 [http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25180502](http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25180502) That is December and it is not all of the illegal activities that so called peaceful protesters were committing, [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=178) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=180)