# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 187
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3721 "2014-07-17T18:41:37Z")
Was just watching a CNN report where they are saying that there are indications that the plane came apart at altitude (large chunks of the plane basically rained down in the area…grim as this is, it should tell some of the 9/11 Truther types exactly what it looks like when a commercial plane is hit by military weapons when it’s flying at altitude, as opposed to slamming into the ground intact at high speeds). ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3722 "2014-07-17T18:42:47Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Seperatists are apparently very busy deleting earlier social media posts in which they were announcing a) to have long range AA Missiles and b) downing a large plane minutes before the crash became public. Its long range/altitude on works really well, if it gets the hand off from a regional air defense center. Otherwise, its normally used against helicopters and low altitude airplanes. I posted in the other thread about what I was thinking in regards to this. I am not doubting what you are saying, just that they normally dont keep their radars hot, so I think someone else is involved. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Cashless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Johnny\_Cashless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Cashless)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3723 "2014-07-17T21:47:50Z")
About the only thing you can be sure of is whoever gets nailed for it didn’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3724 "2014-07-17T22:15:47Z")
> [@Johnny\_Cashless](#): > > About the only thing you can be sure of is whoever gets nailed for it didn’t do it. Well, that’s about the most useless thing you can say. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3725 "2014-08-28T14:32:20Z")
[Now Russian and Ukrainian troops are engaging directly.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/russian-and-ukraine-troops-battle-in-south-prompting-fears-of-widescale-invasion/2014/08/28/04b614f4-9a6e-40f4-aa21-4f49104cf0e4_story.html?hpid=z1) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3726 "2014-08-28T15:00:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Now Russian and Ukrainian troops are engaging directly.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/russian-and-ukraine-troops-battle-in-south-prompting-fears-of-widescale-invasion/2014/08/28/04b614f4-9a6e-40f4-aa21-4f49104cf0e4_story.html?hpid=z1) Maybe more Russian troops “got lost” while “patrolling the border”. Or, as the insurgents’ leader has claimed (with a straight face) - maybe those soldiers on active duty are on vacation and decided to take the vacation helping out the insurgents instead of going to the beach. Putin is a thug. Europe is a weakling coward. Not a good combination. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3727 "2014-08-28T15:19:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Putin is a thug. Europe is a weakling coward. Not a good combination. [Well, just to keep that in its proper perspective:](http://www.salon.com/2014/08/02/beware_the_neocon_exaggerators_they_were_wrong_on_russia_and_the_mideast_before_%e2%80%94_and_theyre_wrong_about_the_threat_now/) > [@](#): > > Because today’s Russia is so much smaller than today’s U.S., similar defense spending as a percentage of GDP buys much less military for Russians than for Americans. The Russian military budget, estimated to be about $70 billion, is dwarfed by that of the combined EU countries ($236 billion) and the U.S. (more than $600 billion). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3728 "2014-08-28T15:22:50Z")
As we’ve recently seen in Iraq, there’s a difference between having weapons and being willing to use them. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3729 "2014-08-28T17:54:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Now Russian and Ukrainian troops are engaging directly.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/russian-and-ukraine-troops-battle-in-south-prompting-fears-of-widescale-invasion/2014/08/28/04b614f4-9a6e-40f4-aa21-4f49104cf0e4_story.html?hpid=z1) So…now what? [Here](http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/28/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1) is the CNN version of the same thing. BTW, hard as it is to believe, but at least one rebel leader actually DID say that the Russian troops in the Ukraine (over a thousand according to CNN) are ‘on vacation’. Hard to credit that anyone would be stupid enough to buy that line, or why anyone would be stupid enough to even say that at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3730 "2014-08-28T17:59:23Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So…now what? [Here](http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/28/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1) is the CNN version of the same thing. BTW, hard as it is to believe, but at least one rebel leader actually DID say that the Russian troops in the Ukraine (over a thousand according to CNN) are ‘on vacation’. Hard to credit that anyone would be stupid enough to buy that line, or why anyone would be stupid enough to even say that at this point. Seems Putin is going for the “boiling frog” approach. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3731 "2014-08-28T18:12:07Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Seems Putin is going for the “boiling frog” approach. Seems to be working pretty well so far. I was willing to give Putin the benefit of the doubt at first, but it’s getting absurdly obvious that he’s masterminding this slow-motion invasion. Nobody is trying to stop him, however (including the Ukrainians themselves) so frankly I’m starting to wonder if Putin has figured out how to wage a land war in the 21st Century. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3732 "2014-08-28T18:15:54Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Seems to be working pretty well so far. > > I was willing to give Putin the benefit of the doubt at first, but it’s getting absurdly obvious that he’s masterminding this slow-motion invasion. Nobody is trying to stop him, however (including the Ukrainians themselves) so frankly I’m starting to wonder if Putin has figured out how to wage a land war in the 21st Century. Not so sure about that. He grabbed the Crimea without trouble, but his latest adventure isn’t going, it would appear, the way he planned - I’m pretty sure he wasn’t planning on his ‘seperatists’ slowly _losing_, thus making his direct intervention more and more obvious to prop them up. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3733 "2014-08-28T18:24:53Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So…now what? [Here](http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/28/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1) is the CNN version of the same thing. BTW, hard as it is to believe, but at least one rebel leader actually DID say that the Russian troops in the Ukraine (over a thousand according to CNN) are ‘on vacation’. Hard to credit that anyone would be stupid enough to buy that line, or why anyone would be stupid enough to even say that at this point. Well, there is such thing as a working vacation . . . ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3734 "2014-08-28T18:27:59Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Not so sure about that. He grabbed the Crimea without trouble, but his latest adventure isn’t going, it would appear, the way he planned - I’m pretty sure he wasn’t planning on his ‘seperatists’ slowly _losing_, thus making his direct intervention more and more obvious to prop them up. Still, nobody has the will to actually send troops in to stop him. Obama sure as shit won’t, and it’s hard to imagine who, outside of maybe Poland, would be willing to chip in any forces. I’m wondering if he figured out that a gradual escalation of the conflict stands much less chance of generating a big response than a large Blitzkreig-type invasion. Compare this to the ISIS problem in Iraq/Syria. They made huge gains quickly, but now the Western nations are getting ready to bomb them back to the Stone Age. A year from noww, the Islamic Caliph (or whatever his title is) is going to be hiding in a basement somewhere, if he isn’t dead. but a year from now, Putin will be fine, and probably touring Crimea. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3735 "2014-08-28T18:54:20Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Still, nobody has the will to actually send troops in to stop him. Obama sure as shit won’t, and it’s hard to imagine who, outside of maybe Poland, would be willing to chip in any forces. I’m wondering if he figured out that a gradual escalation of the conflict stands much less chance of generating a big response than a large Blitzkreig-type invasion. Maybe, but it’s just being overcautious, IMO. The West wouldn’t do anything even if it was a full scale Blitzkrieg invasion. Oh, they would condemn it and Obama would probably do another stern speech. Same result though. US doesn’t trade enough with Russia to make a difference, and Europe would not do anything detrimental to its economy for Ukraine’s sake. And of course it is obvious that neither Obama nor Europe would entertain even a modicum of a thought for military action. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3736 "2014-08-28T19:07:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Maybe, but it’s just being overcautious, IMO. The West wouldn’t do anything even if it was a full scale Blitzkrieg invasion. Oh, they would condemn it and Obama would probably do another stern speech. Same result though. US doesn’t trade enough with Russia to make a difference, and Europe would not do anything detrimental to its economy for Ukraine’s sake. And of course it is obvious that neither Obama nor Europe would entertain even a modicum of a thought for military action. I suppose it could be argued that the present strategy mutes what limited responses one could expect from the West - for example, more speeches and meaningless sanctions, as opposed to more meaningful sanctions. Armed intervention is, as you point out, not in the cards. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3737 "2014-08-28T19:11:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Maybe, but it’s just being overcautious, IMO. The West wouldn’t do anything even if it was a full scale Blitzkrieg invasion. Oh, they would condemn it and Obama would probably do another stern speech. Same result though. US doesn’t trade enough with Russia to make a difference, and Europe would not do anything detrimental to its economy for Ukraine’s sake. And of course it is obvious that neither Obama nor Europe would entertain even a modicum of a thought for military action. Except that Europe has imposed ever increasing sanctions. I doubt Europe (or the EU) or the US would react militarily to anything the Russia does in the Ukraine, but I’m not sure that would be our optimal response anyway. We don’t want to get into a direct shooting war with Russian troops verse NATO or US troops, regardless. Economic sanctions are going to hit Russia a hell of a lot harder than you and Diceman seem to think, and I think indirect military aide as well as economic aid to the Ukraine in conjunction with those sanctions are the best course for us to take. I agree with Malthus…I think that this has turned into more than Putin thought it would, and the fact that the ‘rebels’ are losing has forced his hand in a way that he did not want it too…and it’s going to end up costing Russia in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3738 "2014-08-28T23:32:26Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Except that Europe has imposed ever increasing sanctions. I doubt Europe (or the EU) or the US would react militarily to anything the Russia does in the Ukraine, but I’m not sure that would be our optimal response anyway. We don’t want to get into a direct shooting war with Russian troops verse NATO or US troops, regardless. Economic sanctions are going to hit Russia a hell of a lot harder than you and Diceman seem to think, and I think indirect military aide as well as economic aid to the Ukraine in conjunction with those sanctions are the best course for us to take. I agree with Malthus…I think that this has turned into more than Putin thought it would, and the fact that the ‘rebels’ are losing has forced his hand in a way that he did not want it too…and it’s going to end up costing Russia in the long run. According to Putin and everyone, there are no Russian troops in the Ukraine. We should be free to shoot them at will, so long as we announce having bought his line. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3739 "2014-08-29T00:18:22Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Except that Europe has imposed ever increasing sanctions. I doubt Europe (or the EU) or the US would react militarily to anything the Russia does in the Ukraine, but I’m not sure that would be our optimal response anyway. We don’t want to get into a direct shooting war with Russian troops verse NATO or US troops, regardless. Economic sanctions are going to hit Russia a hell of a lot harder than you and Diceman seem to think, and I think indirect military aide as well as economic aid to the Ukraine in conjunction with those sanctions are the best course for us to take. I agree with Malthus…I think that this has turned into more than Putin thought it would, and the fact that the ‘rebels’ are losing has forced his hand in a way that he did not want it too…and it’s going to end up costing Russia in the long run. The sanctions are only temporary. There’s too much money at stake for them not to be. ---
**Author:** ![Uqbar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a587f6/32.png) [@Uqbar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uqbar)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3740 "2014-08-30T03:54:21Z")
Putin today [says](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2737526/Putin-s-plans-revealed-Vladimir-praises-pro-Moscow-rebels-fighting-New-Russia.html): “Thank God, I think no one is thinking of unleashing a large-scale conflict with Russia. I want to remind you that Russia is one of the leading nuclear powers…It’s best not to mess with us.” (on Ukraine) Translation: I’m using our nuclear capabilities as a threat against anyone who interferes with what I want to do Reptilian. For a leading power’s president to even mention that in this day and age… Roll back the clock and re-imagine Russia without him and his power-hungry maneuvering–would they have been any worse off? No. Get rid of Putin. Of course he will use the sanctions, and what is a largely [state-owned media](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17840134) system in Russia, and sentiments exchanged as a result of trolling fomenters like just upthread, etc., to try to unify the Russian people behind his agenda–poor Russia, unfairly persecuted by the West, etc.–when he has engineered most of the whole series of events. The man is dangerous to the world and his own country. Get rid of him. Preferably by the Russian people themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=186) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=188)