# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/361 "2014-03-03T16:08:54Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It always comes down to this sort of pissing contest, doesn’t it? > > Things are very far from being sorted out in this matter (between Ukraine and Russia) but it seems the least worst of all possible situations so far. No shot has been fired in anger by either side. Both sides appeare to be going about this grim business with the full understanding of realpolitik of who really wants what and where there is room for compromise. But the farther west you go, the less skin in the game, the more shrill rhetoric and posturing you hear. > > Here’s the thing, Putin knows he can’t hang on to all of Ukraine. But he does not want to give up strategic areas like Crimea. So he’ll take what he needs and let the rest go to EU, if the EU will still wants what’s left. In a way this makes things easier for western of Ukrainia as well because a significant population of it’s own citizens wants to remain aligned with Russia. There’s a price Ukrainia must pay for breaking off Russian ties. Putin has named the price. Ukraine is showing willingness to pay it by not responding aggressively to the Russian occupation (thus far). I hope cooler heads (than John Kerry’s\*) will prevail. > > - Though I can understand the US and the west making noise about this. Ukraine breaking off whole (with Crimea intact) might help diminish Russias strategic and military advantage on the Black Sea and access to the Med. Precious little chance Russia would let that happen but why not kick and scream and threaten international sanctions. Beats doing nothing at all. There was never any question of Russia losing its Black Seas base (at least, not until now). The base is on long-term lease and at no time has the goverment of Ukraine threatened to cancel it. This notion is a non-starter. Nor is there, Russian propaganda aside, much real appetite on the part of Ukraine’s ethinic Russian minorities to actually rejoin Russia, Crimea aside. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Russia protecting its “legitimate interests” or “ethnic minorities”, and everything to do with Putin’s rage at having his puppet ignominously kicked out, and fear of losing his new-style Russian imperium, and overturning the possibly infectious “bad example” of people successfully defying authoritarianism. Similarly, the talk of the West going to war is all nonsense. It will not happen. What will likely happen, is an economic disaster for Russia. The economy of Russia was not doing well, even before this move. That 50 Billion dollars Russia spent on bolstering its international image with the Olympics has all now been wasted, the Russian stock-market and currency are in free-fall, investors are scared off in droves, and that’s _before_ any sanctions have been imposed or any real costs of military adventurism have been paid. Naturally, it will also be a disaster for Ukraine, and to a lesser extent, to everyone else. But there is no reasonable way Russia can afford much in the way of military adventures. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/362 "2014-03-03T16:13:29Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Here’s the problem, **John** : you _ **are** _ thinking while “others” remain in Bot mode. Mace can’t say for a fact that Senator Kerry ever ‘approved the invasion of another country in the 21st century on trumped up charges’ because it is not a fact and never was. If you regard ‘thinking’ to be making statements that cannot be backed up with facts or supportable documentation in a debate where facts must be held in high regard then your definition of thinking is not quite as lofty as mine. So be it. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/363 "2014-03-03T16:18:39Z")
I wonder what that little weasel Mc Cain is whispering in the ears of the fascists in Kiev … ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/364 "2014-03-03T16:21:19Z")
Naval commander-in-chief Rear Admiral Denis Berezovsky appeared on television to announce he was defecting to the Russian-supported Crimean side. Will more join him after Russia’s surrender or be stormed ultimatum? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/365 "2014-03-03T16:23:28Z")
The real sad thing is that all these soldiers and sailors were minding their own business a few weeks ago till the fascists started in Kiev now they are the ones who are going to be on the front line dying while the opposition and their Western supporters and activists watch it on TV … ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/366 "2014-03-03T16:24:03Z")
Well, as I was saying before, it always depends on what they “do” with what they bought. In the 50’s a Chinese infantryman with a mortar was cheap and effective. These days, they’re just as inexpensive, but less effective on most days. The question is, will you be fighting that cheap weapon on a day/place where it’s effective enough? The invasions of Iraq played to all of the U.S. forces’ strengths. It was largely open terrain, good weather, there were large conventional forces to fight, the opposing force’s morale wasn’t great, and they were fighting using older technology. I don’t think anyone realistically thought there was a question about the outcome. Afghanistan was a different story for both the U.S.S.R and the U.S… Mountains, lots of irregular forces, taking sides in a civil war with other countries involved on the other side. Neither country made a lot of headway, in the end. The Ukraine seems to have qualities of both if it becomes a shooting war. Everyone involved has an army, and I can’t see either side eschewing the use of irregular forces. It has mountains on the west and south, and plains in between. It’s weather is all over the place. The Black Sea is there, but neither side can safely place their navy there during a war without air superiority, as it’s possible to cover it by both side’s aircraft. There are plenty of land routes into the region for everyone. It’s just not comparable to either of the earlier wars, in the end. It also doesn’t seem to have any easy routes to victory for anyone if shooting starts. The Russians have advanced military, but as **RedFury** says, there’s only one way to find out if the current generation of tech gives either side a decisive advantage. Even if it does, by the time either side gets to the opposite border, a significant portion of the population is going to see your forces as occupiers. Considering all of that: No, I’d rather that the Ukraine wasn’t the place doctrine and hardware were tested, and I hope most agree. But, the ones who actually control that are Putin and the Ukrainian interim government, right now. If the Ukrainians get their forces under control, and if Putin decides that he can attack them without retaliation from the west, and the west decides he’s wrong about that: things may get very complicated. Strange behavior by the last head of the Ukrainian Navy makes me question they are in control of it, at least. If Putin really is intending to keep the Ukraine under his control at all costs, and decides to attack before the Ukrainian military is in order, it might keep the west out, but I would imagine his occupation would be problematic, even then. And even if he moves fast enough to nullify the immediate response, it could still possibly spread outside of the Ukraine. Again, ugh, just ugh. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/367 "2014-03-03T16:28:11Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There was never any question of Russia losing its Black Seas base (at least, not until now). The base is on long-term lease and at no time has the goverment of Ukraine threatened to cancel it. This notion is a non-starter. Depending on how Ukraine’s fledgling independence attempts will play out, that lease agreement may or may not be worth the paper it’s written on. Why would Putin wait for it to become a bigger problem than it is now? > [@Malthus](#): > > Nor is there, Russian propaganda aside, much real appetite on the part of Ukraine’s ethinic Russian minorities to actually rejoin Russia, Crimea aside. Crimea seems to be the only region that Russia is showing interest in. A lot depends on what the Ukrainian interrim gov’t does going forward but I don’t see any evidence of Russia’s interest expanding beyond Crimea. > [@Malthus](#): > > This has nothing whatsoever to do with Russia protecting its “legitimate interests” or “ethnic minorities”, and everything to do with Putin’s rage at having his puppet ignominously kicked out, and fear of losing his new-style Russian imperium, and overturning the possibly infectious “bad example” of people successfully defying authoritarianism. Sure. Putin can hold a grudge. How does this deminish Russia’s “legitimate interest” in Ukraine? The US is still holding a grudge agains Cuba. Putin is not the only petulant child on the world political scene. I find it hard to judge him without a little perspective. > [@Malthus](#): > > Similarly, the talk of the West going to war is all nonsense. It will not happen. Agreed. > [@Malthus](#): > > What will likely happen, is an economic disaster for Russia. The economy of Russia was not doing well, even before this move. That 50 Billion dollars Russia spent on bolstering its international image with the Olympics has all now been wasted, the Russian stock-market and currency are in free-fall, investors are scared off in droves, and that’s _before_ any sanctions have been imposed or any real costs of military adventurism have been paid. I can’t imagine this not being part of Putin’s calculus. The man is not stupid. I have a feeling he is prepared to accept the price that will be exacted in the short term. In the long term, it will not be that bad. > [@Malthus](#): > > Naturally, it will also be a disaster for Ukraine, and to a lesser extent, to everyone else. But there is no reasonable way Russia can afford much in the way of military adventures. It’s a calculated risk and like you said, the west will not go to war over Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/368 "2014-03-03T16:37:25Z")
Kharkiv is the region to watch next ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/369 "2014-03-03T16:40:29Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Depending on how Ukraine’s fledgling independence attempts will play out, that lease agreement may or may not be worth the paper it’s written on. Why would Putin wait for it to become a bigger problem than it is now? It was never on the cards that an independent Ukraine would tweak the bear by booting out the Russians. Why on Earth would they do that? Militarily, they are weak, and if Russia has ecomomic problems, Ukraine’s an economic basket case on life support. > [@](#): > > Crimea seems to be the only region that Russia is showing interest in. A lot depends on what the Ukrainian interrim gov’t does going forward but I don’t see any evidence of Russia’s interest expanding beyond Crimea. We will see about that. It certainly is part of the rhetoric pouring out of Moscow. > [@](#): > > Sure. Putin can hold a grudge. How does this deminish Russia’s “legitimate interest” in Ukraine? The US is still holding a grudge agains Cuba. Putin is not the only petulant child on the world political scene. I find it hard to judge him without a little perspective. Because none of their “legitimate interests” were in any way threatened? Unless one concludes that one of Russia’s “legitimate interests” is having an empire or being surrounded by puppet states. I must say I’m not enamoured of the meme, constantly repeated ad nauseum in this thread and elsewhere, that Russia’s acts are somehow “balanced” or “given perspective” by various bad acts of the USA (who is only very tangentally involved so far). It is totally possible to view the US’s historic preoccupation with Cuba as wrong, and Russia’s current actions as wrong as well. > [@](#): > > I can’t imagine this not being part of Putin’s calculus. The man is not stupid. I have a feeling he is prepared to accept the price that will be exacted in the short term. In the long term, it will not be that bad. Wars have a habit of spiralling out of control. I am not willing to bank anything on Putin being “not stupid”. I sincerely hope that this is all political theatre intended to put pressure on the new Ukrainian government, but very much fear that it will not end as that. > [@](#): > > It’s a calculated risk and like you said, the west will not go to war over Ukraine. I think he has miscalculated. It would appear he assumed that the reaction in the West would be nothing more than its reaction over Georgia. But the situation here is very different. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/370 "2014-03-03T16:56:49Z")
[**The Fact Checker**](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2013/09/10/kerrys-claim-that-he-opposed-bushs-invasion-of-iraq/) > [@](#): > > **Kerry’s claim that he opposed Bush’s invasion of Iraq** > > “You know, Senator Chuck Hagel, when he was senator, Senator Chuck Hagel, now secretary of defense, and when I was a senator, we opposed the president’s decision to go into Iraq, but we know full well how that evidence was used to persuade all of us that authority ought to be given.” – — Secretary of State John F. Kerry, in an interview with MSNBC, Sept. 5, 2013 > > This is at least the second time since becoming secretary that Kerry has asserted that he opposed the 2003 invasion of Iraq while serving as a Democratic senator from Massachusetts. The first time the Kerry made this claim, during a student forum in Ethiopia, his statement [**mysteriously disappeared**](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/john-kerrys-misfire-on-us-performance-on-kyoto-emissions-targets/2013/05/29/9a063d84-c8af-11e2-8da7-d274bc611a47_blog.html) from the [**official State Department transcript**](http://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2013/05/210012.htm). > > **The Facts** > > When it comes to war, Kerry often takes a highly nuanced position. He voted against the congressional resolution authorizing force in the 1991 Gulf War, but voted for the 2002 resolution that supported military action against Iraq. Both votes turned out to be bad political bets. > > When Kerry opposed the 1991 resolution, he complained that the George H.W. Bush administration had done too little to involve the rest of the world in its campaign to oust Iraq from Kuwait. But in 2002, he praised the coalition that had been formed for the first Gulf War, in part to complain that George W. Bush had thus far failed to secure the same level of cooperation. > > When Kerry voted for the 2002 resolution, he warned he would not support war if Bush failed to win the support of the international community in the absence of an imminent threat. “Let me be clear, the vote I will give to the president is for one reason and one reason only: To disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, if we cannot accomplish that objective through new, tough weapons inspections in joint concert with our allies,” Kerry said. > > But Kerry also said that the burden to avoid war was on the Iraqi leader: “Saddam Hussein has a choice: He can continue to defy the international community, or he can fulfill his longstanding obligations to disarm. He is the person who has brought the world to this brink of confrontation.” > > Thus, as the war approached in early 2003, Kerry appeared generally supportive, though critical of the administration’s diplomatic efforts. He was listed in news reports as one of the Democratic presidential aspirants who backed an invasion, though some reporters noted the Hamlet quality of his remarks. > > As the Los Angeles Times headlined one article in January of that year, “On Iraq, Kerry Appears Either Torn or Shrewd.” The newspaper noted that “ **virtually all of Kerry’s rivals for the 2004 Democratic nomination believe he is trying to straddle the issue by shifting his emphasis at different times and for different audiences**.” > > **By the time of the March invasion, after Secretary of State Colin L. Powell’s United Nations presentation on Iraq’s alleged weapons, Kerry backed the attack, according to articles that appeared in the Boston Globe (and which were written by one of his current aides at the State Department).** > > > [@Kerry](#): > > > > _ **“It appears that with the deadline for exile come and gone, Saddam Hussein has chosen to make military force the ultimate weapons inspections enforcement mechanism,” Kerry said. “If so, the only exit strategy is victory. This is our common mission and the world’s cause. We’re in this together. We want to complete the mission while safeguarding our troops, avoiding innocent civilian casualties, disarming Saddam Hussein, and engaging the community of nations to rebuild Iraq”** _ – many more **fucking FACTS** @source. Though I am sure this will go in one eye and out the other, can we _please_ stop this imbecilic highjack? We all get you are a fanatic of Obama and his Administration, but Jebus Fuckin’ Christ! They are fuckin’ human and prone to make mistakes like anyone else! And in Kerry’s case, a hypocritical flip-flopper to boot. So, coming full circle, yes, he came off as a freaking moron in his presser on Sunday. Thus everyone who’s called him on it – both here and in the media (timid & subservient as the US MSM is, there are still a few reporters who recall what "integrity means) – is exactly right. [**Kerry tells Putin: You can’t invade another country ‘on a completely trumped up pretext’**](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/03/03/kerry-tells-putin-you-cant-invade-another-country-on-a-completely-trumped-up-pretext/) And you are wrong as can be. End of. \ ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/371 "2014-03-03T17:01:44Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > I’m not disputing the wisdom, or lack of it, of trying to kick off World War Three over the Crimea, but you realise Russia’s air force was effectively grounded by the Georgians, right, in the Russo-Georgian war? Iraq and Afghanistan regular forces never came anywhere close to putting up any sort of resistance against the US and its allies during the respective invasions. Comparing Iraq to Russia is like comparing Steve Urkel to Mike Tyson. Russia has a real armed forces, and they have a huge logistical advantae if you’re planning on fighting them in Crimea. Is Russia’s armed forces as good as NATO’s? No, but NATO has no serious force ready to invade Crimea, and Russia’s more than good enough to make such a process incredibly bloody, and that’s even assuming it didn’t go nuclear. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Eh? Why not? Historically, fighting Russia only leads to disaster if you **invade** Russia; beyond their own borders, they can be beaten. Well, no. Russia was rather comprehensively squashed in the First World War in their own borders. In the Second World War they seemed to do pretty well fighting outside their own borders. Russia has a mixed history of success and failure on all fronts, as most old countries with long military histories do. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/372 "2014-03-03T18:29:09Z")
> [@](#): > > You don’t just, in the 21st century, behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext, Kerry’s statement on CBS Face that nation **yesterday** regarding the crisis in Ukraine \*\*is in no way made \*\*ironic or hypocritical because Kerry has ever approved the USA to invade another country on completely trumped-up pretext. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/373 "2014-03-03T18:30:28Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Though I am sure this will go in one eye and out the other, can we _please_ stop this imbecilic highjack? no u. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/374 "2014-03-03T18:37:20Z")
The current crisis in Ukraine has caused many to criticize a Statement Made by the Secretary of State based upon a false claim. Kerry stated, > [@](#): > > You don’t just, in the 21st century, behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext, Kerry’s statement on CBS Face that nation **yesterday** regarding the crisis in Ukraine \*\*is in no way made \*\*ironic or hypocritical because some falsly believe that that Kerry has approved the USA to invade another country on completely trumped-up pretext. I repeat and \*\*no fact check \*\*has been presented \*\*to refute **the** fact \*\*that Secretary of State John Kerry \*\*has never in his life \*\*approved the US Military to INVADE another country on **“COMPLETELY TRUMPED up CHARGES.”** ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/375 "2014-03-03T18:48:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Gyrate 03-03-2014 10:59 AM From the BBC: Quote: Russia’s Black Sea Fleet has given Ukrainian forces in Crimea until 5:00 local time (03:00 GMT) on Tuesday to surrender or face an all-out assault, according to Ukrainian defence ministry sources quoted by Interfax-Ukraine news agency. “If by 5am tomorrow morning they do not surrender a real assault will begin on units and sections of the Ukrainian armed forces all over Crimea,” defence ministry officials are quoted as saying. So far there is no further confirmation of the ultimatum from other sources. It was just reported on local news that Russian official are stating that there is no ultimatum. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/376 "2014-03-03T18:50:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Nor is there, Russian propaganda aside, much real appetite on the part of Ukraine’s ethinic Russian minorities to actually rejoin Russia, Crimea aside. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/377 "2014-03-03T19:01:31Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The current crisis in Ukraine has caused many to criticize a Statement Made by the Secretary of State based upon a false claim. > > Kerry stated, > Kerry’s statement on CBS Face that nation **yesterday** regarding the crisis in Ukraine \*\*is in no way made \*\*ironic or hypocritical because some falsly believe that that Kerry has approved the USA to invade another country on completely trumped-up pretext. > > I repeat and \*\*no fact check \*\*has been presented \*\*to refute **the** fact \*\*that Secretary of State John Kerry \*\*has never in his life \*\*approved the US Military to INVADE another country on **“COMPLETELY TRUMPED up CHARGES.”** [**Here you go**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17158946&postcount=161), _pal_. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/378 "2014-03-03T19:13:29Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Cite? This, and many more like it, from actual real-live Ukrainians of ethnic Russian background. [http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1099314](http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1099314) Fact is that there are tensions between ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainains in Ukraine, but there is little genuine appetite for succession: gangs of pro-Russia “protesters” in Eastern cities are hardly “spontaneous” (they come armed with giant Russian flags and posters of Putin, so it is hard to believe Russia is even trying to make them look ‘spontaneous’). Russia is deliberately exaggerating those tensions in order to claim a need to “protect” a minority that doesn’t need its protection. It isn’t even like the Sudetenland - in that case, there was in fact a genuine groundswell of support by ethnic Germans for annexation. Here, it’s more like a faked version, a Potemkin-Sudetenland. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/379 "2014-03-03T19:15:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW I agree that no one here should think we and NATO could crush the Russian military some kind of conventional war. There is no way that could be done. > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > Eh? Why not? Historically, fighting Russia only leads to disaster if you **invade** Russia; beyond their own borders, they can be beaten. Driving Russia out of some territory would be easier than invading Russia that is true. But if we were intent on driving Russians out of Crimea when 6 of 10 there want to join the Russian Federation in that context it would be nearly as difficult as taking Moscow and St Petersburg. Russians and Crimeans would dig in. One the other hand we could destroy the Russian Navy base…But it would be abandoned. But if it got to that point the war would certainly escalate beyond Ukrain’e borders… and the Chinese come in on Russia’s side… the Iranians can do some damage from a rear guard and terrorist… action… Who else… I don’t think it would be a good idea to take Russians on in any location for conventional war… ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/380 "2014-03-03T19:17:26Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Crimea when 6 of 10 there want to join the Russian Federation Cite for this figure? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=20)