# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 190
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3781 "2014-12-17T09:58:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Oh, great. A large country with a significant military that is now in economic collapse. What could possibly go wrong? And a not totally unjustified chip on its shoulder. ---
**Author:** ![Uqbar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a587f6/32.png) [@Uqbar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uqbar)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3782 "2014-12-18T01:32:33Z")
Marx warns against state monopoly capitalism, using it to build his case in favor of (though poorly defined) communism; Russia ventures into communism after early 20th century upheavals, economic straits, etc., then gets out of it only to steer right into [stamocap](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_monopoly_capitalism) (“One of the most prominent current examples of Stamocap is the de facto economic system in modern day Russia under its current autocrat, Vladimir Putin.” (though grain of salt, from Wikipedia)) early in the next century, causing some to wax nostalgic for the old regime!? Communist conspiracy theories anyone? ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3783 "2014-12-18T02:54:04Z")
> [@opesdol\_opesdolovich](#): > > I’m sorry, but your views on how diplomacy works are extremely naive, if not to say laughable. > Not that I claim any special insight, but it’s commonly understood that when two sides negotiate, it’s very rare to “just ask”. > Maybe at first you do “just ask”, but then, if you don’t get what you want, you try to compromise with the other side. Or threaten it. Or cajole it. Or implore it. Or offer it quid pro quo. Or beg it on your knees. Or offer them something else they might be interested in. You have to be an imbecile to “just ask”. > Let’s give credit where credit is due: the US president is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but not an imbecile (hapless–yes, imbecile-no) and he did try to get his way with France via blackmail option (nothing wrong with that, by the way). > > What the US tried to do here is to link the sale of Mistrals with the fine US financial authorities are imposing on French BNP Paribas bank. > > [Pour Poutine, l'affaire BNP Paribas et la vente des Mistral sont liées - Challenges](http://www.challenges.fr/economie/20140701.CHA5621/pour-poutine-l-affaire-bnp-paribas-et-la-vente-des-mistral-sont-liees.html) > > In simple terms, it went like this: "Hey, you don’t sell Mistrals to Russia, we lower the $9 billion fine on BNP Paribas ". > France thought long and hard (about 15 seconds, it appears) and given a choice between angry, determined and tough President Barack Obama and Vladimir Putin, made their choice loud and clear. 400 Russian sailors are in France as we speak, getting ready to take the delivery of the first ship. > > In fact, French were so impressed by Obama’s negotiating prowess and blackmail attempts, the head of Bank of France started making noises about abandoning the US dollar in international transactions. > > [wantinews.com —](http://www.wantinews.com/news-8569039-France-39s-central-bank-head:-EU-trade-or-abandon-US-dollar-and-the-euro-instead-of-RMB.html) > > Right you are, he never was… until he decided that he was and butted in… And got his nose broken for his troubles (more on the nose below). It’d be better for him to stay out of it completely, of course, at least he’d avoid getting embarassed (yet again) by Vlad the Magnificient. > > I’m sorry, you’re contradicting yourself. First you say “Obama doesn’t control the stock market” and then you say there’re actions he can take to drive the stocks lower? > Which one is it? > Let me ask you a few questions. > If Obama doesn’t control the stock market, what possessed his officials to advise investors to short the Russian stocks? > If Obama does control the stock market, why is the Russian stock market going into the exact opposite direction of that which US Administration predicted it would go? > > Here’s a nice and funny evisceration performed by Business Insider on yet another failure of US President’s Administration. > The only way you could earn money by shorting anything in this fiasco, is if you went short on Jay Carney…the poor schmuck lost his job shortly after giving his brilliant financial advice. > > [Jay Carney Called Bottom Russia Stocks - Business Insider](http://www.businessinsider.com/jay-carney-called-bottom-russia-stocks-2014-6) > Don’t get me wrong, I like your defeatist attitude and whiny tone (“but Obama’s not the president of France, what can he do, other, than, perhaps, unsuccesfully blackmail the French?” “But Obama can’t influence the stock market, what can he do, other than, perhaps, talking about how he’ll drive the Russian stocks lower?” ) > The more Americans adopt your attitude, the easier it’ll be for them to accept the harsh reality. > > There’s actually a quote (apocryphical, most likely, I’ve never seen an original source for it ) attributed to Vladimir Vladimirovich: > “Dealing with Obama is like playing chess with a monkey. It knocks all the pieces over, flings shit all over the board, then thumps its chest, and declares itself a winner” > > So you know what…you’re right. > Let’s declare Obama’s humiliation over Mistrals a defeat for Vladimir Putin and a stunning victory for the US President. > While we’re at it, let’s also pretend that Russian stocks crashed, completely justifying the US Administration “short call”. > Reality should be spurned. > > Well, how about grave consequences, such as making sure that Russia doesn’t get the Mistrals delivered? Or how about making the Russian stocks go lower? > Would you say this is something Obama is capable of delivering? > > You haven’t been paying attention. Putin doesn’t “tweak” the noses of the West. He breaks their noses. > **\** Any chance of an un-ban of this character so he can participate in a status review of his Obama vs. Putin scorecard? I just hope he used pencil… ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3784 "2014-12-18T06:17:38Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > They’re Russian speaking in Odessa, and no anti-government protests of note (the noteable Odessa protest was the one in which 50 or so pro-Russians were burned to death). The anti-government protests were mostly in Western Ukraine and Kiev. Not that they ever had their own government in Ukraine, since all leaders have been self-serving corrupt bastards to the bone. Ukranians react to that with rightful protests and demonstrations, Russians react with apathy and disillusion which eventually flame up into these more deadly conflicts you see now. But Russia lost the ball, they’ll not gain control over Eastern Ukraine and Ukraine will slowly turn to the West - provided the West does not loose the ball either and refuse to aid Ukraine with generous amount of money and expertise. It’s not just ‘Russia’ who’s the actor in Eastern Ukraine (out of respect for **tomndebb** I will drop the definite article). A substantial amount of people in Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts don’t want to be part of Ukraine any more. What about their welfare? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3785 "2014-12-18T10:03:00Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > It’s not just ‘Russia’ who’s the actor in Eastern Ukraine (out of respect for **tomndebb** I will drop the definite article). A substantial amount of people in Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts don’t want to be part of Ukraine any more. What about their welfare? It’s a lost cause. They’re not getting independence, Russia is not willing to walk the mile for them and those in the region feeling so strongly about it that they were willing to go to war for it were never a majority. Nothing is gained by continuing the current war except extend the misery. They should approach the Ukrainian government and negotiate the best deal they can. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3786 "2014-12-21T06:20:25Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > It’s not just ‘Russia’ who’s the actor in Eastern Ukraine (out of respect for **tomndebb** I will drop the definite article). A substantial amount of people in Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts don’t want to be part of Ukraine any more. What about their welfare? Since you clearly want to use “the definite article” perhaps you could let us know why you hate the Ukrainians so much that you want to use a rather poorly chosen ethnic slur to refer to them. Do you have family from the area or is there a particular reason you have a mad on against them due to Ukrainian history. For the record, I myself don’t have strong feelings one way or the other unless you count not like ethnic states based on blood and soil nationalism and prefer large, cosmopolitan, multi-ethnic states. One reason I think breaking up the Ottoman Empire was bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3787 "2014-12-24T01:11:54Z")
[I’ve found an surprisingly intelligent and balanced article on the subject in the Daily Mail of all places.](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2882208/PETER-HITCHENS-Forget-evil-Putin-bloodthirsty-warmongers.html) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3788 "2014-12-24T04:20:50Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > [I’ve found an surprisingly intelligent and balanced article on the subject in the Daily Mail of all places.](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2882208/PETER-HITCHENS-Forget-evil-Putin-bloodthirsty-warmongers.html) Assuming you aren’t speaking with heavy irony there, what about it do you think is ‘surprisingly intelligent and balanced’, since it looks like a huge load of horse shit and historical revisionism to me? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3789 "2015-02-07T20:28:13Z")
So today in the news Merkel is saying the Ukraine situation can’t be solved militarily. Yet, militarily seems to be the precise way Russia is achieving its goals. I don’t want to see Ukraine become a cold war proxy war with the West & Russia pumping weapons into Ukraine until the place is a cratered wasteland, but how can we sit back and let Russia roll in its tanks and take what it wants while the West sits back and takes a non-military stance? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3790 "2015-02-07T20:33:15Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > So today in the news Merkel is saying the Ukraine situation can’t be solved militarily. Yet, militarily seems to be the precise way Russia is achieving its goals. > > I don’t want to see Ukraine become a cold war proxy war with the West & Russia pumping weapons into Ukraine until the place is a cratered wasteland, but how can we sit back and let Russia roll in its tanks and take what it wants while the West sits back and takes a non-military stance? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17159607&postcount=403](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17159607&postcount=403) I repeat. Putin regards the West as soft, degenerate and greedy. He is sure that they will not inconvenience themselves for the sake of Ukraine. I am pretty sure he is correct. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3791 "2015-02-07T20:37:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17159607&postcount=403](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17159607&postcount=403) > > I repeat. Putin regards the West as soft, degenerate and greedy. He is sure that they will not inconvenience themselves for the sake of Ukraine. I am pretty sure he is correct. I’m not sure what you mean by “not inconvenience themselves.” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3792 "2015-02-07T21:09:43Z")
Right now, Russia is the one spending all that money and getting nothing in return. Why should the West do anything? ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3793 "2015-02-08T20:11:31Z")
Well Russia has got Crimea (seemingly permanently as no one seems to be seriously challenging them on it) and their separatist clients seem to be pretty much winning in the Eastern Ukraine. Meanwhile the EU sanctions seem to be hurting European farmers more than the Russians and the Ukrainian government keeps coming back for more loans. Looks to me like Russia seems to be doing pretty well out of the whole deal by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3794 "2015-02-08T21:26:31Z")
Neither Crimea nor an eastern breakoff is going to do much for Russia really. In what sense are they “doing well”? Not that I buy your uncited declaraton of who’s getting hurt most by Russian and EU sanctions. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3795 "2015-02-08T22:22:02Z")
There’s no money in conquest for the sake of conquest. Hasn’t been for over a century. Ukraine has no resources and no strategic value; if Russia conquers it, all they’ll end up with is Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3796 "2015-02-08T22:29:01Z")
Putin doesn’t care about Ukraine, per se. He just doesn’t want it leaning Westward. So, it’s probably more in his interest to NOT gobble up the eastern part, but to keep tensions high. That makes other border countries nervous, too, about what happens in their own countries if they try and opt out of the Russian orbit. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3797 "2015-02-09T04:00:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Putin doesn’t care about Ukraine, per se. He just doesn’t want it leaning Westward. So, it’s probably more in his interest to NOT gobble up the eastern part, but to keep tensions high. That makes other border countries nervous, too, about what happens in their own countries if they try and opt out of the Russian orbit. This is probably true, but there’s an economic angle that **Alessan** and **carnalk** overlooked. Controlling Ukraine would be extremely valuable. It’s a prize of 45 million men, women and children, has been locked under Russian control before, and has extensive agricultural sectors which could reduce Russian dependence on Europe. Further, controlling Crimea alone nets him a permanent warm-water port, something Russia still has issues with. Finally, it strengthens his negotiating position via-a-vis western Europe as much as it does strengthen his hand in Eastern Europe. For Putin, there most certainly is wealth for conquest, even if there isn’t a pile of gold sitting around to be taken. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3798 "2015-02-09T04:40:48Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Assuming you aren’t speaking with heavy irony there, what about it do you think is ‘surprisingly intelligent and balanced’, since it looks like a huge load of horse shit and historical revisionism to me? Yeah it’s amusing that someone actually considered that a balanced article. An accusation that the EU funded anti-russian political groups (Even if true, so what? It’s not hard to find groups supported by the Kremlin). “Since 1989 russia has peacefully ceded thousands of hectares of land”: of course all of it before Putin’s reign. And “war is hell”, so we shouldn’t do anything to threaten conflict. Forget that fighting is happening already, and that Russia is involved. I’m sure those living in Eastern Ukraine can relate to the desperate living conditions his mother once experienced. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3799 "2015-02-09T14:43:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Putin doesn’t care about Ukraine, per se. He just doesn’t want it leaning Westward. So, it’s probably more in his interest to NOT gobble up the eastern part, but to keep tensions high. That makes other border countries nervous, too, about what happens in their own countries if they try and opt out of the Russian orbit. I have always thought this was more about perception within Russia than any actual concrete gain. People are all the time making the comparison between Putin and Hitler. I think the far better ‘fit’ is the comparison between Putin and Mussolini (pre-WW2). - Picking off easy targets that are mostly militarily worthless - check. - Thumbing his nose at the international community for domestic applause - check - Looking backwards in a claim to re-create imperial glory - while lacking the economic and military ability to do more than pick off the weak - check. - Lots of useful idiots in the West admire his spunk in thumbing his nose at the West - check. - Western reaction weak, divided and feeble in the face of his provocations - check. - Targets of his aggression absorb piles of money, while producing little of actual economic value (except perhaps in some distant future) - check. - Tweaks the tails of his enemies in the West, but has no real interest in an all-out military confrontation with them - check. Just like Mussolini, the real threat isn’t from him - it is from the damage he is doing to the international system, which may encourage others like China - who have real economic power behind them - into unwise adventures. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/3800 "2015-02-20T12:01:40Z")
The British House of Lords has criticised the Government’s and the EU’s naive approach to relations with Russia: [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31545744](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31545744) > [@](#): > > The House of Lords EU committee claimed Europe “sleepwalked” into the crisis. > > The EU had not realised the depth of Russian hostility to its plans for closer relations with Ukraine, it said. > > The committee’s report said Britain had not been “active or visible enough” in dealing with the situation in Ukraine. > > It blamed Foreign Office cuts, which it said led to fewer Russian experts working there, and less emphasis on analysis. > > A similar decline in EU foreign ministries had left them ill-equipped to formulate an “authoritative response” to the crisis, it said. > > The report claimed that for too long the EU’s relationship with Moscow had been based on the “optimistic premise” that Russia was on a trajectory to becoming a democratic country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=189) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=191)