# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/421 "2014-03-03T22:56:01Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You still do not know what ‘IF’ does when used to start a sentence. I cannot help you until that meaning becomes clear to you somehow. No, you are wrong. You used “if” with regards to the word “intent”, not to the figures you made up. There can be no other reading. I may not speak Russian but I clearly speak better English than you so just accept this point. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/422 "2014-03-03T22:58:55Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > There’s a lot more than “some” justification. One part of the country started rioting, elected leader flees, what’s left of the Parliament votes for his removal and arrest then they put a new guy in charge. That’s a truckload of justification for not accepting the sovereignty of the government. Suppose Richard Nixon had not resigned, and instead impeachment had gone ahead. People are so darned angry about it, they demonstrate outside the White House. Nixon orders Army troops to quell the demonstrations and people get shot, which only makes him look worse and new articles of impeachment are added. At some point in 1975 it’s apparent he might go to jail and he flees the country, and Gerald Ford is duly appointed President. All very awful, I am sure. Now, is California justified in seceding? Would the Soviet Union have been justified in sending troops into California to help its secession? [QUOTE=Henrichek] In this case it’s Ukraine carving itself up from within. [/QUOTE] But that is simply not true; **Russia is doing some, if not most, of the carving.** If Ukraine wants to pull apart, that’s up to them. Let them. But it should be up to them, not Russia. Thanks to Russian intervention it’s quite impossible to actually know if Crimeans want to split up from Ukraine or not. Had Russia kept out of this and an independence movement had arisen in Crimea, well, there would be a case for peaceful negotiation and careful planning of possible secession. This Russian-orchestrated nonsense is a power play and an invasion, quite obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/423 "2014-03-03T23:03:03Z")
Can I just say that before other countries start imposing sanctions on the Russians that we should start by getting the Paralympic athletes the hell out of Sochi. Government officials from the US and Great Britian are boycotting the games but the athletes are still there, in a secure compound surrounded by Russian troops. If we’re going to be standing on the brink of war puffing up chests and poking at each other it would be nice if we first removed the hundreds of athletes from the enemies control. I suspect the Ukrainian’s have not sent a team and I would hope that before any other country takes action they first act to secure their citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/424 "2014-03-03T23:03:39Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > So far, it is you who haven’t produced anything. So far, you are down to complainng about what I’ve produced. You made a claim, and I asked for a cite. You provided nothing that backed up your claim. So there’s that. > [@Malthus](#): > > Perhaps you could provide some sources of your own? Sure, would love to. For what, exactly…? > [@Malthus](#): > > I’ve said that there is little genuine appetite, which appears to be true. How would you know? > [@Malthus](#): > > Oh please. Surely you aren’t going to make the conversation descend to that level of triviality, are you? I have no interest in such rhetorical games. 😕 So why did you ask “how do you know they don’t?” If you knew I had never claimed any such thing, why did you ask? > [@Malthus](#): > > Sure there is gonna be some genuine support for a Russian invasion - but that isn’t the question: the question is whether that support is a tiny minority, supported and magnified by Russian interference, or genuinely reflective of the popular mood. I agree with you. But so far, it seems as if you don’t know, just like I don’t know, if it is indeed a tiny minority, or about 50%-50%, or a huge majority. We just don’t have enough hard data and reliable statistics to know - really, absolutely, and for sure - if a minority or a majority of the Crimeans want succession or annexation, as opposed to continued union with Ukraine. We don’t know, and so it bothers me when people claim to know, with no real, hard data to back up their claims. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/425 "2014-03-03T23:07:40Z")
I laughed when I heard UK was boycotting the Paralympics. Then I found out it was just the official delegation that was boycotting. We should let the athletes have their day without too much politics. But let Russians threaten or intimidate a bunch of handicapped athletes. If Russia isn’t a total global pariah yet, it would be. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/426 "2014-03-03T23:15:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Suppose Richard Nixon had not resigned, and instead impeachment had gone ahead. People are so darned angry about it, they demonstrate outside the White House. Nixon orders Army troops to quell the demonstrations and people get shot, which only makes him look worse and new articles of impeachment are added. At some point in 1975 it’s apparent he might go to jail and he flees the country, and Gerald Ford is duly appointed President. > > All very awful, I am sure. Yanukovych was not under any formal impeachment of any kind and was replaced by an opponent. Nixon won across the entire country, Ford was the Constitutional successor and was in the same party as Nixon. It’s really not remotely comparable. It also blithely ignores how many in Crimea see it - as a blatant coup. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/427 "2014-03-03T23:18:26Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I laughed when I heard UK was boycotting the Paralympics. Then I found out it was just the official delegation that was boycotting. We should let the athletes have their day without too much politics. But let Russians threaten or intimidate a bunch of handicapped athletes. If Russia isn’t a total global pariah yet, it would be. Except Russia has already violated the terms of the [“Olympic Truce”](http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/RES/48/11) or UN resolution 48/11. The Paralympics were included in the definition of the truce in 1998. Of course there is no actual penalty to violating this but Russia is clearly demonstrating that they don’t believe the world treating them as a pariah is worth worrying about. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/428 "2014-03-03T23:38:54Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Fair enough. What if they act as a soverign country You can “act” like one all you want, but if it is not recognized by anyone (except probably Russia) then you’re not. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/429 "2014-03-03T23:45:36Z")
> [@Henrichek](#): > > Perhaps the current regime in Kiev should have thought about that when they illegally carried out an armed coup against the democratically elected government. Ukraine is pretty much a legal vacuum at the moment. It’s highly hypocritical of the new regime to suddenly expect the rest of the country to respect their authoritah, considering how they came to power themselves. > > Instead, they could have waited until next year and deposed the president in the election, and none of this would have happened. Hurrah. We have context and perspective. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/430 "2014-03-03T23:51:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You can “act” like one all you want, but if it is not recognized by anyone (except probably Russia) then you’re not. Cite? soveriegnty is soveriegnty. Recognition of soveriegnty by some of the ‘those’ who don’t always recognize the soveriegn integrity of borders themselves is not that much of a standard to be opposed to a non-violent split from an entity that just had its president removed by violence instead of a constitutional election. Think about it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/431 "2014-03-03T23:57:04Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yanukovych was not under any formal impeachment of any kind and was replaced by an opponent. Nixon won across the entire country, Ford was the Constitutional successor and was in the same party as Nixon. It’s really not remotely comparable. It also blithely ignores how many in Crimea see it - as a blatant coup. Woahhhh! another good one. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/432 "2014-03-03T23:57:10Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Hurrah. We have context and perspective. Here’s some more. The very first thing Putin did was sleazily claim Crimea can illegitimately overthrow their local parliament just like Kiev did. It’s hardly a gotcha. Thing is, the Kiev protesters trotted out their new appointees in front of the crowds and more or less got their yay or nay. Crimea was overthrown by a secret closed door “vote” when it isn’t even clear that many voting parliamentarians were even present. It’s childish (which Russian leaders are) to claim it’s all actually the same thing, when it obviously isn’t when context is applied. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/433 "2014-03-04T00:07:15Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Here’s some more. The very first thing Putin did was sleazily claim Crimea can illegitimately overthrow their local parliament just like Kiev did. It’s hardly a gotcha. Thing is, the Kiev protesters trotted out their new appointees in front of the crowds and more or less got their yay or nay. Crimea was overthrown by a secret closed door “vote” when it isn’t even clear that many voting parliamentarians were even present. It’s childish (which Russian leaders are) to claim it’s all actually the same thing, when it obviously isn’t when context is applied. By context I presume you mean it’s fine when people the West approve of overthrow a democratically elected leader but an outrage when anybody else does it? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/434 "2014-03-04T00:11:57Z")
I think the context intended was that one (Crimea) was under military duress when it did it’s overthrowing and it did it in secret. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/435 "2014-03-04T00:15:20Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think the context intended was that one (Crimea) was under military duress when it did it’s overthrowing and it did it in secret. Yup. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/436 "2014-03-04T00:28:28Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think the context intended was that one (Crimea) was under military duress when it did it’s overthrowing and it did it in secret. According to NPR just now, the new Prime Minister of Crimea, ran in the last set of elections in a coalition of pro Russian parties. They won a grand total of 4% of Russian speakers, in Crimea. This is the guy who called on Russia to protect ethnic Russians by invading Crimea. :dubious: **Capt** ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/437 "2014-03-04T00:28:49Z")
[**UK seeking to ensure Russia sanctions do not harm City of London**](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/03/uk-seeks-russia-harm-city-london-document?CMP=twt_gu) > [@](#): > > ritain is drawing up plans to ensure that any EU action against Russia over Ukraine will exempt the City of London, according to a secret government document photographed in Downing Street. > > As David Cameron said Britain and its EU partners would put pressure on Moscow after it assumed control of Crimea, **a government document drawn up for a meeting of senior ministers said that “London’s financial centre” should not be closed to Russians.** It did say that visa restrictions and travel bans could be imposed on Russian officials… Bwahahaha! I love the smell of hypocrisy in the evening. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/438 "2014-03-04T00:35:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve never heard of such a country. My country recognizes no such place. Do they have an embassy here? Yes, as a matter of fact, but you probably know it as the Cocky Cossack Gentlemen’s Club on Yonge Street. Tell the manager you want to speak to Ambassador Natasha. (No, he won’t waive the cover charge.) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/439 "2014-03-04T00:37:08Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > From the BBC: > [@](#): > > Russia’s Black Sea Fleet has given Ukrainian forces in Crimea until 5:00 local time (03:00 GMT) on Tuesday to surrender or face an all-out assault, according to Ukrainian defence ministry sources quoted by Interfax-Ukraine news agency. “If by 5am tomorrow morning they do not surrender a real assault will begin on units and sections of the Ukrainian armed forces all over Crimea,” defence ministry officials are quoted as saying. So far there is no further confirmation of the ultimatum from other sources. [Not so](http://rt.com/news/russia-dismiss-ultimatum-ukraine-644/): > [@](#): > > Media reports about an alleged Russian ultimatum made to the Ukrainian armed forces in Crimea are “total nonsense,” a spokesman for the Russian Defense Ministry said. > > He said that no ultimatum had been made to the Ukrainian forces, Interfax reports. > > “We have become accustomed to the daily accusations by the Ukrainian media of carrying out some sort of military actions against our Ukrainian colleagues," Russian Black Sea Fleet representative said, adding that “those who want to pit us against each other in the Crimea won’t succeed.” > > “There’s nothing new about such disinformation. It’s clear who is behind this. Those ‘puppeteers’ have been unable to come up with anything new since Yugoslavia, Iraq and Syria,” he added… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/440 "2014-03-04T00:39:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yanukovych was not under any formal impeachment of any kind . . . 😕 I recall reading Parliament had impeached him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=23)