# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/441 "2014-03-04T00:55:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If Ukraine wants to pull apart, that’s up to them. Let them. But it should be up to them, not Russia. Thanks to Russian intervention it’s quite impossible to actually know if Crimeans want to split up from Ukraine or not. Had Russia kept out of this and an independence movement had arisen in Crimea, well, there would be a case for peaceful negotiation and careful planning of possible secession. This Russian-orchestrated nonsense is a power play and an invasion, quite obviously. Seriously. How does a minority constitutionally obtain independence? Perhaps Crimeans saw a breakdown in the constitutional process and took advantage of it. The fools in Kiev were throwing Molotov cocktails and being shot in order to pay more for Russian NG. Now the fools in Kiev are losing one of the best things they had going - Russia leasing a base through 2044. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/442 "2014-03-04T00:56:48Z")
For **Malthus** : [**Covering the Russian Army in Crimea**](http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/03/covering-the-russian-army-in-crimea/) > [@](#): > > _Sergey Ponomarev, 31, is a freelance photographer covering the conflict in Ukraine on assignment for The New York Times. He grew up in Moscow and also in Ireland, where his father worked as a journalist for Itar-Tass. He previously worked for The Associated Press. He spoke to James Estrin from Crimea on Sunday evening Eastern time. The conversation has been edited._ > > Q. What did you see today? > > A. I witnessed Russian troops surrounding a Ukrainian military base. They spoke with a commander and gave him an ultimatum that he needed to surrender and lay down arms. After he refused to do that, they waited for a while and then again asked him to come and meet with them. The Ukrainian commander came back and said that the problem is solved, there will be no war. > > It seems both sides don’t want to break the fragile peace. But the Russians stayed outside of the base. > > Q. When did you arrive in Crimea? > > A. It was four days ago. > > Q.Why did you go there? > > A. I just thought that the next news would happen there. I saw pictures on Twitter showing a crowd of about 30,000 gathered in Simferopol [the capital of Crimea]. **I thought this is the story, because the new Ukrainian authorities are weak in the countryside so all those regions and people that have been trying to get away from Ukraine for ages will try to do that.** > > I was in Simferopol visiting a friend when I was studying in university and also when I was with The Associated Press covering a joint Ukrainian and Russian Navy parade in 2011. **This is a totally military city, where almost all of its citizens are somehow connected with the Navy. And almost all want to be part of Russia** … ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/443 "2014-03-04T00:58:31Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yanukovych was not under any formal impeachment of any kind Yanukovich was impeached Feb. 22, in fact. > [@](#): > > It also blithely ignores how many in Crimea see it - as a blatant coup. So you say. And hell, maybe some, maybe many, Ukranians living in Crimea agree with you. It is, however, \*up to Ukraine to decide how to move forward. \*It’s not for Russia to go charging in and creating new countries with force of arms. [QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] Seriously. How does a minority constitutionally obtain independence? [/QUOTE] It’s up to Crimeans to decide if they want to be independent and then embark upon a course of action to get it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/444 "2014-03-04T01:03:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 I recall reading Parliament had impeached him. Afaik, that happened after months of rioting, storming of government buildings and him running for it. Or is that what you mean? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/445 "2014-03-04T01:09:02Z")
Won’t C&P as not to flood the thread with articles, but a highly recomended read: [**The Battle for Ukraine: The West is Running Low on Options and Legitimacy**](http://iacknowledge.net/the-battle-for-ukraine-the-west-is-running-low-on-options-and-legitimacy/) ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/446 "2014-03-04T01:16:59Z")
Perhaps the Russians should say they’re looking for WMD in Crimea. It’s worked before. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/447 "2014-03-04T01:17:23Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Please read the link on Russia’s _current_ military strenght in my post [**#324**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17157889&posted=1#post17157889). They’ve been working very hard at upgrading/rebuilding/modernizing their armed forces – and its starting to pay off. > > Please link to it – but if you said that, it would directly contradict the first part of this post of yours. Hope this reply isn’t too late in coming. Stupid work getting in the way of posting on the internet. In post #249, I said “But military intervention by NATO is completely absurd. It doesn’t matter who would win such a war, as frankly Ukraine just isn’t worth the cost of such a war. I know it’s hard to put it so bluntly, but I think the line has to be drawn at NATO’s borders. Prior to that the US can and should exercise its right to impose economic sanctions, along with NATO/EU nations if they agree.” In post #275, I said “But still, i dont see a larger war coming from this. Ukraine may descend into hell, however.” When, in post #327, I said “I was not envisioning that we would occupy or even invade Russia, just drive them out of Ukraine and reduce their capacity to wage war,” I was referring to my comment that, in the hypothetical, I believe NATO/EU has the capacity to defeat Russia. I was not indicating that I thought we should/would do so. In fact, all my posts have been clear (IMO) that we should not engage militarily over Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/448 "2014-03-04T01:44:51Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think the context intended was that one (Crimea) was under military duress when it did it’s overthrowing and it did it in secret. Maybe, but if it was military duress then it is not now. It looks like it won’t be too hard for a majority in Crimea to vote to separate themselves from fascists. It looks as if Russian TV has its pretty good version of Fox News. When it comes to agitating without a firm reliance on facts. > [@](#): > > What is the probability of the secession of Crimea? > > By now, I consider it relatively likely. It’s hard to tell what it will look like in terms of international law: whether Crimea will continue to formally be a part of Ukraine, or exist as an independent state or actually become part of the Russian Federation. > > Has the new Ukrainian government made mistakes and thus fueled the conflict on the Crimean peninsula? > > The main problem is that the Russian population in Russia as well as the Russian population on the Crimean peninsula has been agitated against the protesters in Maidan Square by Russian state television over the last few months. On state television, the events have been portrayed as a fascist overthrow orchestrated by the West. That’s why fears are arising now, in Russia as well as in Crimea. > > Andreas Umland studied Central and Eastern European history. He is the publisher of the “Forum for Eastern European Idea- and Contemporary History” Read More: ['Crimea secession likely' – DW – 03/01/2014](http://www.dw.de/crimea-secession-likely-ukraine-expert/a-17467309?maca=en-rss-en-all-1573-rdf) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/449 "2014-03-04T02:10:05Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Cite? soveriegnty is soveriegnty. > **[Sovereignty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty)** > > Sovereignty can generally be defined as supreme authority. Sovereignty entails hierarchy within a state as well as external autonomy for states. In any state, sovereignty is assigned to the person, body or institution that has the ultimate authority over other people and to change existing laws. In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme legitimate authority over some polity. In international law, sovereignty is the exercise of power by a state. The term arises... According to Immanuel Wallerstein, another fundamental feature of sovereignty is that it is a claim that must be recognised by others if it is to have any meaning: “Sovereignty is more than anything else a matter of legitimacy […that] requires reciprocal recognition. Sovereignty is a hypothetical trade, in which two potentially conflicting sides, respecting de facto realities of power, exchange such recognitions as their least costly strategy.” You can declare your backyard as an independent sovereign state of NFBW. Even give out citizenships. It will still not be sovereign. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/450 "2014-03-04T02:14:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW Seriously. How does a minority constitutionally obtain independence? > > > [@RickJay](#): > > > > It’s up to Crimeans to decide if they want to be independent and then embark upon a course of action to get it. I am gradually accepting that the 1.7 million Russian-Speaking Ukrainians living on the Crimean Peninsula have already embarked on a course of action to obtain independence. They could never do it constitutionally. And this independence is what they want and it will begin to end the ruthless and worthless tug of war that has gone on between the Russian Federation and the EU and US an all the rest of the NATO countries. > [@](#): > > Crimean secession from Ukraine grows more likely 27 February 2014 12:58 (Last updated 27 February 2014 18:17) As secession scenarios surrounding chaos in Ukraine mulitply, pro-Russian demonstrations gather pace in strategic peninsula ANKARA By Mustafa Caglayan Some Excerpts: > [@](#): > > A week ago, on a day when Kiev was gripped by its worst violence yet, the head of the regional parliament, Vladimir Konstantinov, said that Crimea might secede from the rest of country if the political crisis spiraled further out of control. “The entire situation is heading towards it,” he was quoted as saying by Russian news agency Interfax. > > Kostantinov also said the current situation could quickly become a civil war. > > And that was only the beginning. Pro-Russian demonstrations have gathered pace ever since, with occasional skirmishes between pro- and anti-Russian protesters. > > A group of 300 pro-Russia demonstrators gathered in front of the local parliament on Tuesday, demanding Ukraine’s government be declared illegal, a return to 1992 Crimea Constitution and a referendum over Crimea’s status. > > At the same time, a group of nearly 200 Crimean Tatars, who have supported Ukraine’s opposition since the beginning of crisis, staged a counter-demonstration. The Crimean Tatars said they would respond to all moves to part Crimea from Ukraine and attach it to Russia. > > The following day, a parliamentary session in which the Autonomous Republic of Crimea’s independence from Ukraine was expected to be discussed was cancelled. The ensuing clashes between rival groups left one dead and 26 others wounded. > > On Thursday, it was reported that armed men had seized control of two government buildings in Simferopol, the Crimean capital, and raised the Russian flag over them. > > As secession scenarios surrounding the chaos getting more and more explicit, the moderate Crimeans find themselves in a tense wait. > > “Disunion is a characteristic of Ukraine,” said Habibe Ozdal, an expert on Russia and Black Sea studies in the Ankara-based think tank International Strategic Research Organisation. > > For harmony to be achieved in a country like Ukraine, elected leaders must adopt inclusive and unifying policies, she said. But recently Ukraine has not come close to implementing such policies, she said. > > “\*\*Secession is evolving into being a full-fledged alternative solution,” \*\*she said. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/451 "2014-03-04T02:30:11Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I am gradually accepting that the 1.7 million Russian-Speaking Ukrainians living on the Crimean Peninsula have already embarked on a course of action to obtain independence. > > Some Excerpts: > > > [@](#): > > > > A group of 300 pro-Russia demonstrators Well, if 300 protestors show up, I’m sure they represent the other 1,699,700 Russian Speaking Ukrainians living on the Crimean Peninsula. But just to be clear… are we talking this time about the actual Crimea or some fantasy Crimea that you have conjured up to support some other argument you will claim to be making later on? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/452 "2014-03-04T02:35:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [Sovereignty - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty) > > According to Immanuel Wallerstein, another fundamental feature of sovereignty is that it is a claim that must be recognised by others if it is to have any meaning: “Sovereignty is more than anything else a matter of legitimacy […that] requires reciprocal recognition. Sovereignty is a hypothetical trade, in which two potentially conflicting sides, respecting de facto realities of power, exchange such recognitions as their least costly strategy.” > > You can declare your backyard as an independent sovereign state of NFBW. Even give out citizenships. It will still not be sovereign. The Autonomous Republic of Crimea will be recognized by at least one Super Power to start with… Then more… and then more… What is your point. If it is probably only Russia to recognize Crimea as you think it will be, it will still be a sovereign state … or they can choose to become part of Russia once their Independence is established. Anyway if they want to be separated from the bullcrap and nationalist insanity of the rest of Ukraine I doubt that being recognized by Russia alone would be a deterrent to going for full independence. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/453 "2014-03-04T02:51:56Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I am gradually accepting that the 1.7 million Russian-Speaking Ukrainians living on the Crimean Peninsula have already embarked on a course of action to obtain independence. So all 1.7 million Ukrainians who speak Russian in Crimea want independence now? (This number, by the way, must include many people who consider themselves primarily Ukrainian; there are 2 million people in Crimea and 60% of them claim Russian ethnicity, which is not 1.7 million.) Exactly how many of them have had anything to do with this? Is it even equal to the number of Russian soldiers there now? You have a demonstration with 300 people? Shit, that’s nothing. Last year I helped organize a flash mob to dance to “Harlem Shake” in front of Burlington City Hall. We got more than 300 people for that stunt. They can’t get 301 people for what you claim is a serious independence movement? I’m curious as to what your position on Crimean independence was before this entire fiasco began and you decided Vladimir Putin was just the coolest. [QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] … or they can choose to become part of Russia once their Independence is established. [/QUOTE] What a laugh. They will be offered no choice. At best Crimea will be a joke puppet state, like East Germany, which won’t even deserve the bother of sending an ambassador, since it’ll be run out of the Kremlin. That’s the absolute max they can hope for. There is no huge push here for Crimean independence. Russia’s invading and the common man is smart enough to pray the place doesn’t get burned down and stay out of the way. This is pure imperialism, the Crimean Anschluss. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/454 "2014-03-04T02:57:42Z")
Today the Autonomous Republic of Crimea is formed as an independent, integral public authority. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, if 300 protestors show up, I’m sure they represent the other 1,699,700 Russian Speaking Ukrainians living on the Crimean Peninsula. > > But just to be clear… are we talking this time about the actual Crimea or some fantasy Crimea that you have conjured up to support some other argument you will claim to be making later on? You are making another false personal insult that I conjured something up…as if I were ‘lying’… keep it up… Let all see what you do. Perhaps You’ll believe Brietbart > [@](#): > > Russia declares the Autonomous Republic of Crimea > > It appears that Russia has taken control of Crimea without firing a shot and is referring to it as the “Autonomous Republic of Crimea,” presumably with the intention of making it a puppet state of Moscow. > > Ukraine’s government in Kiev is only a few days old and seems to be in disarray. So far, it’s avoiding any strong military overreaction that would provide Russia with an excuse for a further military invasion, perhaps into eastern Ukraine beyond Crimea. However, the government warned Sunday it was on the brink of disaster and called up military reservists to counter Russia’s threat to Ukraine. > > Russia has appointed Sergey Aksyonov to prime minister of Crimea, and on Sunday he announced: > > > [@](#): > > > > I believe that this day will go down in history of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea as the day that all law enforcement agencies were established in the autonomy. We will prove that the Crimeans are capable of protecting themselves and ensure the safety and freedom of our citizens. > > > > … > > > > Today the Autonomous Republic of Crimea is formed as an independent, integral public authority. I am sure that all of us will prove that we did not just come into power and that we can give Crimeans what they expect from us. > > > > We will never see ‘Maidan’ with their black smoke and burned tires here. I responsibly promise that Crimea by May will be calm, quiet, friendly. People of all nationalities will live here happily. > **[World View: Russia Declares the Autonomous Republic of Crimea](https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/03/02/3-mar-14-world-view-russia-declares-the-autonomous-republic-of-crimea/)** > > It appears that Russia has taken control of Crimea without firing a shot, and is referring to it as the ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/455 "2014-03-04T03:21:19Z")
NFWB is using Breitbart as a source???:eek: What’s next? Finn citing the Electronic Intifada? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/456 "2014-03-04T03:27:18Z")
Hey, **NFBW** : Obama disagrees with you on Crimea. Is he wrong? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/457 "2014-03-04T06:43:06Z")
> [@Moonlitherial](#): > > Except Russia has already violated the terms of the [“Olympic Truce”](http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/RES/48/11) or UN resolution 48/11. The Paralympics were included in the definition of the truce in 1998. > > Of course there is no actual penalty to violating this but Russia is clearly demonstrating that they don’t believe the world treating them as a pariah is worth worrying about. The international press should run with that. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/458 "2014-03-04T06:58:02Z")
Hey maybe the Olympics should split off a Spring and Fall games and then we could have world peace two months every year? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/459 "2014-03-04T07:30:15Z")
Breaking Reports of rounds being fired over Belkek naval base after 50% surrender ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/460 "2014-03-04T08:37:16Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think the context intended was that one (Crimea) was under military duress when it did it’s overthrowing and it did it in secret. > [@levdrakon](#): > > Yup. As I remember the timeline, the Crimean decision was taken before there were reports of a military intervention in Crimea. On the other hand, the situation in Kiev, with the impeachment process and everything happening in the Rada after Yanukovich was ousted from power, was happening with an angry mob of armed thugs (the Right Sector, Svoboda, wearing shields of strangled and shot policemen, wielding clubs, molotov cocktails, and guns) surrounding the Rada. Many MP’s were not there, and all the subsequent voting was carried out under heavy duress and under threat of violence. Now that was quite akin to a kangaroo court, while I don’t see any similar duress happening at the time in Crimea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=24)