# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/461 "2014-03-04T08:49:59Z")
> [@Henrichek](#): > > As I remember the timeline, the Crimean decision was taken before there were reports of a military intervention in Crimea. > > On the other hand, the situation in Kiev, with the impeachment process and everything happening in the Rada after Yanukovich was ousted from power, was happening with an angry mob of armed thugs (the Right Sector, Svoboda, wearing shields of strangled and shot policemen, wielding clubs, molotov cocktails, and guns) surrounding the Rada. Many MP’s were not there, and all the subsequent voting was carried out under heavy duress and under threat of violence. Now that was quite akin to a kangaroo court, while I don’t see any similar duress happening at the time in Crimea. Valid point about the right wing conservatives. I’m pretty sure the Crimean takeover was accompanied by professional paramilitary troops with no insignia and speaking flawless Russian. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/462 "2014-03-04T10:40:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Why bother to wait? Why doesn’t Obama just declare a “red line”, threaten to shoot some missiles, and Putin will fall into line like you think he did in Syria. Right? > > Regards, > Shodan His Red Line in Syria was the use of chemical weapons _by the government_. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/463 "2014-03-04T10:44:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > NFWB is using Breitbart as a source???:eek: > > What’s next? > > Finn citing the Electronic Intifada? Is there something constructive you have to add to the OP and the discussion. Or what is your point… John Mace has been shown to be wrong…once again. That was the intent. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/464 "2014-03-04T10:47:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Hey, **NFBW** : Obama disagrees with you on Crimea. Is he wrong? What do you think he disagree with me on Crimea about? Explain what you see? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/465 "2014-03-04T11:33:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > …you decided Vladimir Putin was just the coolest. > . If you must make false assertions about what I ‘decided’ it shows weakness in your argument. It matters not what \*\*I think \*\*about Crimean Independence… it was not an issue up until now… it is entirely up to the resident’s there and they should work something out with the Tatars. I am beginning to see slanted reporting from western journalists that needs to be reviewed and carefully scrutinized. One thing I see emerging because of reporting on all fronts and in conversations with relatives in Russia yesterday, is that 'right wrong or indifferent, the Russian Speaking Ukrainians who listen to Russian TV News and Russians at home (one relative is a doctor/top administrator and the other is a police officer) and another relative living in Germany who watches Russian and German TV news are entirely and firmly convinced that the new leadership there by riot not election are fascists on a scale not seen since the Nazi’s were the threat to that part of the world. It is exaggerated I know… but I am observing the reality in Crimea that these people are motivated or can be motivated to act very much contrary to how the west wants them to act. The west has lost a major PR effort in selling this Kiev revolution as a good thing to the most important ‘strategic’ people who matter. You can’t blame all this on Putin’s mad dog quest to restore the Soviet Union to its once great vast empire. My father in law was fiercely anti-Putin until now. He’s doing the Russian version of ‘given em hell Harry’ right now and by 'em I mean the west and the fascists they are supporting and propping up in Ukraine. They are entirely of the impression in Russia that Crimea is now an autonomous state and it was accomplished without firing a shot. If the fascists don’t like it too bad. \\ Not saying they are right about the fascists but that emotional appeal which is working makes it believable for me that Crimea will be independent, And it would not be for fear of Russia… it is for fear of fascism and Ukrainian anti-Russian nationalism and the mess the West has help make in Kiev and all the other anti-Russian areas. There was something being passed that speaking Russian in Ukraine was banned. That inflamed a lot of this. The armed guards that took over the Crimean Legislature and airports and bases were in part according to many reports the former security forces that confronted the rioters in Kiev… They made it to Crimea where they were welcomed … and were very early making the moves for Crimean independence. . Sketchy yet but there was to be an open debate in the Crimean Legislature when Tatars showed up to showed there disapproval… Two pro-Russian people were killed and the debate was canceled… Later this inflamed more passion toward independence. I do intend to witness events as they unfold and listen to all sides in this conflict. I refuse to have my mind strapped to the westernized news media’s version as some kind of final verdict on all this. It took a year for the West to quietly publish the truth about Sakaashvilli launching dozens of Grad Rockets on homes and business where women and children and Russian peacekeepers were preparing to retire for the night. I have stated my dislike of Putin and why, but it was on the other Ukraine thread. So I don’t fault you for not knowing that. But you should not make assumptions that you cannot back up. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/466 "2014-03-04T11:43:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Exactly how many of them have had anything to do with this? Is it even equal to the number of Russian soldiers there now? How many Russian Soldiers have you confirmed in Crimea right now and what specifically are they doing off the bases? I need to know what number you are going by and what presence or direct threat they have made on the 1.7 million population. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/467 "2014-03-04T11:55:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > While it is interesting that many Crimeans are ethnically Russian, it’s an irrelevance in terms of this issue. If some of them want to be Russian that’s just too damned bad; they can move towards constitutional change and peaceful secession if they want to, as in fact many places have, successfully and unsuccessfuly, in the past. If they don’t like it, they can go to Russia. Oh come on - someone had to say it. > [@RedFury](#): > > [**UK seeking to ensure Russia sanctions do not harm City of London**](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/03/uk-seeks-russia-harm-city-london-document?CMP=twt_gu) > > Bwahahaha! I love the smell of hypocrisy in the evening. Governments in general and Tory governments in particular - moral up to the point it might actually cost them money and not an inch further. Apparently estate agents in Kensington and Mayfair are screaming their heads off about the potential loss of trade from the Russian oligarchs, currently the big-money spenders in that neck of the woods. > [@RedFury](#): > > [Not so](http://rt.com/news/russia-dismiss-ultimatum-ukraine-644/): Certainly “disinformation” was involved, but I doubt that one was the West’s doing. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/468 "2014-03-04T12:12:03Z")
Short answer: the EU will kiss Putin’s rear, Obama will huff and puff and flounce a bit and Kerry will continue to behave like a cock. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/469 "2014-03-04T12:17:19Z")
Ha! This just arrived: ‘ **US and Europe on brink of passive-aggressive letter to Putin** ’ > **[US and Europe on brink of passive-aggressive letter to Putin](https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/us-and-europe-on-brink-of-passive-aggressive-letter-to-putin-2014030484238)** > > THE United States and Europe have warned Vladimir Putin to watch his post box for a passive-aggressive bombshell. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/470 "2014-03-04T12:24:07Z")
It appears that Putin is starting to walk things back, somewhat. Various news reports say that he’s recalled the military exercises on Ukrainian borders and is pretending like the Russian troops deployed to Crimea are not really there. I guess he’s re-evaluating his options in response to the the world’s reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/471 "2014-03-04T13:02:27Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It appears that Putin is starting to walk things back, somewhat. Various news reports say that he’s recalled the military exercises on Ukrainian borders \*\*and is pretending like the Russian troops deployed to Crimea are not really there. \*\* He’s pretending that they’re not Russian troops, which is slightly different. That’s quite a common tactic: send special forces to a foreign country but don’t let them wear any national emblems. That way you have a presence in the area, but if they get into trouble you can deny having anything to do with it. If I recall correctly, the squad that was sent to Pakistan to kill Obama Bin-Laden was a similar ‘undercover’ force. Also, I agree that Putin will have to back down to some extent. The question is how far we can make him back down… that depends on European and American diplomats ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/472 "2014-03-04T13:04:25Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It appears that Putin is starting to walk things back, somewhat. Various news reports say that he’s recalled the military exercises on Ukrainian borders and is pretending like the Russian troops deployed to Crimea are not really there. > > I guess he’s re-evaluating his options in response to the the world’s reaction. Or he’s just messing with the rest of the world to see what he can get away with. It’s a ballsy strategy but then Putin is a ballsy guy, and the long-term downsides are relatively mild from Russia’s perspective compared to the potential gains. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/473 "2014-03-04T13:19:11Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Or he’s just messing with the rest of the world to see what he can get away with. It’s a ballsy strategy but then Putin is a ballsy guy, and the long-term downsides are relatively mild from Russia’s perspective compared to the potential gains. Oh, for sure. He’s not done with Crimea yet. He’s just reconsidering the scope and strategy as he continues probing the extent of the west’s commitment to their rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/474 "2014-03-04T13:22:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Putin insisted that the armed men seen in Crimea in green uniforms without insignia, driving vehicles without markers, were not Russian — defying the observations of numerous journalists. “Look at former Soviet republics,” he said. “You can go to a store and buy a uniform. Were these Russian soldiers? No, they’re very well-trained self-defense forces.” > > [http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/putin-calls-new-ukraine-government-unconstitutional/2014/03/04/92d4ca70-a389-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c\_story.html?wpisrc=al\_national](http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/putin-calls-new-ukraine-government-unconstitutional/2014/03/04/92d4ca70-a389-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c_story.html?wpisrc=al_national) The Ukrainians say 16,000 Russian troops invaded - Putin says zero. Very interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/475 "2014-03-04T13:25:46Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > You made a claim, and I asked for a cite. > > You provided nothing that backed up your claim. > > So there’s that. You asked for a cite and I duly produced one, which you are hand-waving away what I produced as “nothing”. Which hardly strikes me as justified. > [@](#): > > Sure, would love to. > > For what, exactly…? Don’t be so coy. To contradict the site I produced of course. > [@](#): > > How would you know? From what I’ve read and from what I’ve personally heard from people who live in the country whom I know. > [@](#): > > 😕 > > So why did you ask “how do you know they don’t?” If you knew I had never claimed any such thing, why did you ask? I think you are arguing dishonestly here. It is clear from your posts you have an opinion. Why not just come out and say what it is? > [@](#): > > I agree with you. > > But so far, it seems as if you don’t know, just like I don’t know, if it is indeed a tiny minority, or about 50%-50%, or a huge majority. We just don’t have enough hard data and reliable statistics to know - really, absolutely, and for sure - if a minority or a majority of the Crimeans want succession or annexation, as opposed to continued union with Ukraine. We don’t know, and so it bothers me when people claim to know, with no real, hard data to back up their claims. I don’t know _for sure_, but I have the ability to make reasonable assumptions based on what I do know. Again, I’m talking about Eastern Ukraine and not Crimea. 1. I do know that actual human beings who actually live in the country at issue are actually saying that the alleged public pressure is based on a small and unrepresentative group. I have provided a cite for that. You can hand-wave that away all you like, but it is in fact evidence. 2. I do know for sure - and you agree - that there is a massive Russian propaganda effort to blow this public pressure out of proportion. 3. We now know as a fact that Russians are being “bussed in” to bolster the protests. Here’s another cite. I have no doubt you will dismiss it out of hand, as you did the last, but what the hell. > **[From Russia, ‘Tourists’ Stir the Protests (Published 2014)](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/04/world/europe/russias-hand-can-be-seen-in-the-protests.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=0)** > > “Protest tourists” from across the border are joining demonstrations by ethnic Russians in southern and eastern Ukraine. > [@](#): > > As pro-Russia demonstrations in 11 cities have suddenly erupted where significant populations of ethnic Russians live, the apparent organization of the demonstrators, appearances of Russian citizens and reports of busloads of activists arriving from Russia itself suggest a high degree of coordination with Moscow. At a minimum, Russians are instigating protests by Ukrainians sympathetic to Moscow, helping to create a pretext for a broader intervention if Mr. Putin decides to push things that far. > > In Donetsk, when the crowd took control of the Parliament building on Monday, the Soviet-era ballad “Russians Don’t Surrender” blasted from loudspeakers and Mr. Khudyakov huddled in conversation with the leader of Donetsk Republic, a local organization demanding greater autonomy from Kiev. Back home, Mr. Khudyakov is better known for having founded several nationalist vigilante groups with the tacit blessing of the Russian government. > > The most dramatic expressions of the new pro-Russia fervor have taken place here, the former political base of Viktor F. Yanukovych, the country’s deposed president, and in Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second most populous city, just 20 miles from the Russian border. > > When a crowd of thousands of pro-Russia demonstrators in Kharkiv stormed an administration building occupied by pro-Kiev demonstrators on Saturday in a melee that left two dead and 100 hospitalized, a 25-year-old Muscovite, who was staying in a hotel just off the square, scaled the building, lowered the Ukrainian flag and hoisted the Russian banner in its place. > > “I am proud that I was able to take part in defeating the fighters who came to ‘protest peacefully’ with knives in Kharkiv and raise the Russian tricolor on the building of the liberated administration,” wrote Mikhail Chuprikov, who hotel employees confirmed checked in under a Russian passport, in a blog post under a pseudonym. In short, I have good reasons to _reasonably conclude_ that these are “potemkin demonstrations” orchestrated from Moscow. Certainly, there is some home-grown pro-Moscow sentiment, but the notion that these demonstrations represent an authentic expression of popular will is risable. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/476 "2014-03-04T13:41:12Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The Ukrainians say 16,000 Russian troops invaded - Putin says zero. Very interesting. They both have cause to exagerate the numbers. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/477 "2014-03-04T13:42:22Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > The international press should run with that. That would be nice but most of them are ignoring the fact that they’re even starting this week. Luckily so is Putin so there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/478 "2014-03-04T13:52:36Z")
> [@](#): > > UKRAINE CRISIS: > > US Secretary of State John Kerry arrives in Kiev for talks with new Ukrainian government This is the unelected who overthrew the elected, isn’t it? An overthrow of democracy engineered and funded by the US? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/479 "2014-03-04T14:06:55Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > How many Russian Soldiers have you confirmed in Crimea right now and what specifically are they doing off the bases? I need to know what number you are going by and what presence or direct threat they have made on the 1.7 million population. reports the 50th 55th 147th Missile Air Defense Regiments joined independant Crimean forces today ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/480 "2014-03-04T15:23:20Z")
It seems to me that Ukraine outwitted Russia. I think Putin was expecting the chaos of the change in power to cause some Ukranian military to fire upon the Russian soldiers and give a pretext to fire back. The total lack of military response by the Ukraine forces Russia into a neutral position even when invading. Their only choice now is when to leave (which admittedly may be a while from now) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=25)