# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/501 "2014-03-04T18:47:43Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > They could have marched up unarmed and without flags of any kind. Yet, they chose not to. > > My speculation is that in absence of an elected Ukrainian gov’t, combined with the fact that the Ukrainian military appears to be demonstrating nostalgia and solidarity with the Russian military through defections and displays like this, Putin is absolutely correct in assuming that much of Ukraine would hand itself over readily to Russian control. What??!! How on earth are you getting that from that footage. These men carry a large Ukranian flag and march towards the guards, singing the Ukranian anthem. The guards fire warning shots at the marchers that demand access to their base and you see all this as a show of _solidarity_!??? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/502 "2014-03-04T18:52:05Z")
I do not see the details you mentioned in the linked article. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/503 "2014-03-04T18:53:37Z")
Guardian headline: > [@](#): > > John Kerry hails Ukraine protesters as standing for freedom right, by over throwing the democratically elected government. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/504 "2014-03-04T19:03:30Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I do not see the details you mentioned in the linked article. Watch the video that accompanies the article. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/505 "2014-03-04T19:20:49Z")
Ah. Had to switch from Chrome to see the video. :-\ ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/506 "2014-03-04T19:24:11Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > All unarmed, carrying the SSR Sickle and Hammer flag. Interesting choice/decision. > > Would you interpret that as a show of solidarity? Nostalgia, perhaps? The voiceover saud near the beginning they were marching because they wanted their jobs back (having been thrown out the base). I guess they’re basically on the same side and just want their jobs back. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/507 "2014-03-04T19:28:14Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You seriously believe that this ‘cite’ confirms the assertion? I mean…seriously? Have you honestly been following the events in Ukraine prior to the coup? Sure doesn’t seem like it. [**Ukraine: One ‘Regime Change’ Too Many?**](http://consortiumnews.com/2014/03/01/ukraine-one-regime-change-too-many/) – written by Ray McGovern, former CIA operative. Salient paragraphs: > [@](#): > > Is “regime change” in Ukraine the bridge too far for the neoconservative “regime changers” of Official Washington and their sophomoric “responsibility-to-protect” (R2P) allies in the Obama administration? Have they dangerously over-reached by pushing the putsch that removed duly-elected Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych? > > Russian President Vladimir Putin has given an unmistakable “yes” to those questions – in deeds, not words. His message is clear: “Back off our near-frontier!” > > \ > > Unless Obama is completely bereft of advisers who know something about Russia, it should have been a “known-known” (pardon the Rumsfeldian mal mot) that the Russians would react this way to a putsch removing Yanukovich. It would have been a no-brainer that Russia would use military force, if necessary, to counter attempts to use economic enticement and subversive incitement to slide Ukraine into the orbit of the West and eventually NATO. > > This was all the more predictable in the case of Ukraine, where Putin – although the bête noire in corporate Western media – holds very high strategic cards geographically, militarily, economically and politically. > > \ > > We know that thanks to neocon prima donna Victoria Nuland, now Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs, who seemed intent on giving new dimension to the “cookie-pushing” role of U.S. diplomats. Recall the photo showing Nuland in a metaphor of over-reach, as she reached deep into a large plastic bag to give each anti-government demonstrator on the square a cookie before the putsch. > > **More important, recall her amateurish, boorish use of an open telephone to plot regime change in Ukraine with a fellow neocon, U.S. Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt. Crass U.S. interference in Ukrainian affairs can be seen (actually, better, heard) in an intercepted conversation posted on YouTube on Feb. 4.** > > Yikes! It’s Yats! > > Nuland was recorded as saying: “ **Yats is the guy. He’s got the economic experience, the governing experience. He’s the guy you know. … Yats will need all the help he can get to stave off collapse in the ex-Soviet state. He has warned there is an urgent need for unpopular cutting of subsidies and social payments before Ukraine can improve**.” > > **And guess what. The stopgap government formed after the coup designated Nuland’s guy Yats, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, prime minister! What luck!** Yats is 39 and has served as head of the central bank, foreign minister and economic minister. And, as designated pinch-hitter-prime-minister, he has already talked about the overriding need for “responsible government,” one willing to commit “political suicide,” as he put it, by taking unpopular social measures. Now, try putting 2 + 2 together and see what you get. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/508 "2014-03-04T19:30:21Z")
Watched it. Does not appear very confrontational. The two groups appear neutral at best. One appears under orders to keep base secure, the other wants to return to their stations/base. Warning shots seem like an over-reaction. Would have been interesting to see how it was settled. \ ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/509 "2014-03-04T19:35:19Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Now, try putting 2 + 2 together and see what you get. [/QUOTE] That it equals ‘your cite did not demonstrate what you were asserting, and that when called on it you pulled this cite out of your ass to try and prop up the claim’. Or, 4 in other words…while you are claiming it equals A. > [@](#): > > Have you honestly been following the events in Ukraine prior to the coup? Sure doesn’t seem like it. Honestly? No. I wasn’t following events in the Ukraine prior to the coup except peripherally. Sorry, the Ukraine was simply not on my personal radar until just before the coup and afterwards. Be that as it may, you have still failed to really demonstrate that the US was behind the coup, even remotely or tangentially. I know YOU think you have…the same as 9/11 Truthers are convinced that they have presented all of the evidence needed to prove their claims…but so far you haven’t come close to proving anything, and certainly the post I was responding too didn’t. But, you answered the question…you seriously do think that the cite you gave shows something. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/510 "2014-03-04T19:38:26Z")
> [@XT](#): > > But, you answered the question…you seriously do think that the cite you gave shows something. To anyone but the most closed-minded it does. It really does. This is all standard form, the US has done this so many times in the past five decades, it’s a smooth, vastly experienced operation. And as I mentioned in a previous post, check the work done by Pierre Omidyar with USAID on this - again, standard form. You won’t find any ref to it in your mainstream corp/caplitalist media, for pretty obv. reasons. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/511 "2014-03-04T19:39:36Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Lots of people speak flawless Russian in Crimea. What is your point? Flawless Russian does not make them Russian Federation soldiers. When the right wingers overthrew the government its coming out that many of the special police that were defending the pro-Russian Ukrainian president/government were the unmarked parramilitary that arrived in Crimea that started the move for independence. > > An autonomous independent Crimea is being reported as a done deal with many cities siding with the break away from Ukraine. Flawless probably isn’t the right word, but when the insignia-less troops were occupying Crimea, the airport I think, someone asked one of the soldiers why he had an accent from inside Russia and the guy said something like “I spend a few months there and picked it up.” Sounds lame. I could spend a few months in the southern US but I wouldn’t come back with a southern accent. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/512 "2014-03-04T19:39:47Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Have you honestly been following the events in Ukraine prior to the coup? Sure doesn’t seem like it. > > [**Ukraine: One ‘Regime Change’ Too Many?**](http://consortiumnews.com/2014/03/01/ukraine-one-regime-change-too-many/) – written by Ray McGovern, former CIA operative. > > Salient paragraphs: > > Now, try putting 2 + 2 together and see what you get. The notion that events in Ukraine were dictated by Washington is silly, to anyone who knows the situation there. Washington was (and is) _reacting_ to events there. Sure, they were happy to see and support (mostly to date with lip service) a popular movement that preferred the EU over Russia, but they did not _create_ it, and even if they wanted to, they could not _prevent_ it. Note that the same is not true of current Russian actions. This is not a symmetrical situation, with US interence countered by Russian interference. This is a situation of a popular movement, one that the West broadly supports (with good reason!), countered by Russian interference. The notion that impeaching the duly elected president is somehow “anti-democratic” is another absurdity. An election does not give a leader _carte blanche_ to rob his country blind and murder people who disapprove. Democracy isn’t simply a sort of religious ritual that confers a seamless mantle of legitimacy. It requires things like respect for the rule of law to work. When the President starts (say) having his relations corner the market in government contracts and having opponents “disappeared”, he _ought_ to be impeached. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/513 "2014-03-04T19:40:17Z")
The US deciding the future of Ukraine…but don’t believe your lying ears: [**'F** k the EU’\*\*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTos0duooaU) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/514 "2014-03-04T19:43:52Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > To anyone but the most closed-minded it does. It really does. > > This is all standard form, the US has done this so many times in the past five decades, it’s a smooth, vastly experienced operation. > > And as I mnentioned in a previous post, check the work done by Pierre Omidyar with USAID on this - again, stndard form. You won’t find any ref to it in your mainstream corp/caplitalist media, for pretty obv. reasons. No, it really doesn’t, except to the already converted. I’m going to need a bit more to go by than a cite from a former CIA operative (retired 1990) cum political activist on an obviously (to me) loony lefty website that has an (again to me) obvious agenda. Perhaps this constitutes proof where you come from (I’m certain it does) but to me this is hardly cut and dried…and certainly Red’s post that I was originally responding too didn’t demonstrate squat wrt his assertion that the US was behind the coup. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/515 "2014-03-04T19:44:47Z")
> [@XT](#): > > …But, you answered the question…you seriously do think that the cite you gave shows something. As I said – and as does **BrokenBriton** – to anyone not playing the no-see, no-hear, no-talk, three, rah rah USA! USA!, monkeys, it’s blatanly clear. Seriously, explain the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/516 "2014-03-04T19:45:24Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The notion that events in Ukraine were dictated by Washington is silly, to anyone who knows the situation there. Washington was (and is) _reacting_ to events there. The US is reacting to events in the east, especially in Crimea. It is, however, orchestrating events in Kiev, esp. in relation to the unelected ‘leadership’ that overthrew the democractic government. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/517 "2014-03-04T19:47:10Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > The US deciding the future of Ukraine…but don’t believe your lying ears: > > [**'F** k the EU’\*\*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTos0duooaU) Oh yeah? Well fuck Russia. There. Now I’m controlling events in Ukraine! ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/518 "2014-03-04T19:47:46Z")
> [@XT](#): > > No, it really doesn’t, except to the already converted. I’m going to need a bit more to go by than a cite from a former CIA operative (retired 1990) cum political activist on an obviously (to me) loony lefty website that has an (again to me) obvious agenda. Where woud that come from, except another Edward Snowden five years, ten years down the line. You have to read the runes better, not wait for proclamational headlines in the NewYork Times. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/519 "2014-03-04T19:50:15Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Where woud that come from, except another Edward Snowden five years, ten years down the line. You have to read the runes better, not wait for proclamational headlines in the NewYork Times. So, that would be a ‘no’ then. You have nothing and neither does Red. And all this talk of me being a monkey chanting rah! rah! USA! USA! is pretty fucking ironic, considering what you guys are trying to do and to pass off as proof of the assertion that the US is behind the coup. When come back bring…fucking something. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/520 "2014-03-04T19:54:20Z")
It just isn’t going to be laid out for you on the nightly news. If you can get that far, it’s a start. Maybe even ask yourself wtf John Kerry is doing in Kiev supporting the protestors who overthrew the democractically elected government, and now led by Yatsenyuk - the man Nuland cited as her ideal choice a month ago. And Kerry is claiming these nationalists are all about ‘freedom’. It doesn’t even make common sense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=27)