# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/521 "2014-03-04T19:56:01Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > The US deciding the future of Ukraine…but don’t believe your lying ears: > > [**'F** k the EU’\*\*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTos0duooaU) Have you actually listened to the tape? The scandal on that tape is the hostility of the US officials towards the EU [nad, possibly, the fact that Russia bugged the call]. The rest is about them facilitating meetings between various Ukranian officials to try to put together that deal with the President (the one that Russia refused to sign and that fell apart anyway, with the President fleeing the country). Wow, such puppetmasters. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/522 "2014-03-04T20:00:01Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > As I said – and as does **BrokenBriton** – to anyone not playing the no-see, no-hear, no-talk, three, rah rah USA! USA!, monkeys, it’s blatanly clear. > > Seriously, explain the conversation. Please rein in the name calling. You may not have meant it - you better not have - but this could be construed as calling other posters monkeys. It would be a shame if you did that. A damn shame. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/523 "2014-03-04T20:02:01Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Please rein in the name calling. You may not have meant it - you better not have - but this could be construed as calling other posters monkeys. > > It would be a shame if you did that. A damn shame. No insult meant. It was simply a reference to the [**Three wise monkeys**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_wise_monkeys) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/524 "2014-03-04T20:04:30Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Have you actually listened to the tape? The scandal on that tape is the hostility of the US officials towards the EU [nad, possibly, the fact that Russia bugged the call]. The rest is about them facilitating meetings between various Ukranian officials to try to put together that deal with the President (the one that Russia refused to sign and that fell apart anyway, with the President fleeing the country). > > Wow, such puppetmasters. 😃 Seems to me _you_ are the one that didn’t listen to it – note how they casually discard Vitali as an option for any cabinet position. That doesn’t seem “estrange” to you? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/525 "2014-03-04T20:08:01Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Seems to me _you_ are the one that didn’t listen to it – note how they casually discard Vitali as an option for any cabinet position. > > That doesn’t seems “extrange” to you? :dubious: It is known as “diplomacy”. No doubt this is a strange concept. 😉 Sure, they have their impressions of who they would like to see. In fact, though, none of it occurred like they thought it would. It is obvious that they are not driving events - they are _reacting_ to them. There is not a hint in their call that the deal was never going to be implemented, for starters … ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/526 "2014-03-04T20:09:48Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It is known as “diplomacy”. No doubt this is a strange concept. 😉 > > Sure, they have their impressions of who they would like to see. In fact, though, none of it occurred like they thought it would. It is obvious that they are not driving events - they are _reacting_ to them. > > There is not a hint in their call that the deal was never going to be implemented, for starters … Utter non-sense. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/527 "2014-03-04T20:11:36Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Utter non-sense. Well, I dunno how I can possibly refute that masterful argument. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/528 "2014-03-04T20:13:44Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > …Maybe even ask yourself wtf John Kerry is doing in Kiev supporting the protestors who overthrew the democractically elected government, and now led by Yatsenyuk - the man Nuland cited as her ideal choice a month ago. > > And Kerry is claiming these nationalists are all about ‘freedom’. It doesn’t even make common sense. I’d love to read an answer to this as well. Not that I expect one coming forth if **Malthu’s** is an example. You know, they are just “reacting.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/529 "2014-03-04T20:16:12Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Well, I dunno how I can possibly refute that masterful argument. 😃 Perhaps by responding to the question laid out to you? You could, you know, “react” to them as opposed to try to bury them as deep as you can with…utter-nonsense. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/530 "2014-03-04T21:02:58Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The notion that events in Ukraine were dictated by Washington is silly, to anyone who knows the situation there. Washington was (and is) _reacting_ to events there. > > Sure, they were happy to see and support (mostly to date with lip service) a popular movement that preferred the EU over Russia, but they did not _create_ it, and even if they wanted to, they could not _prevent_ it. There’s been a brutal right-wing fascist movement in the Ukraine for a long time, many of the current Svoboda and Right Sector thugs and organisations being descended from the CIA-backed OUM-B and -M of the 40s and 50s, who committed numerous atrocities in the name of anti-communism. The US didn’t have to create them. It did have the fund and organise them. > [@](#): > > Note that the same is not true of current Russian actions. This is not a symmetrical situation, with US interence countered by Russian interference. This is a situation of a popular movement, one that the West broadly supports (with good reason!), countered by Russian interference. What is the good reason to support a gang of murderous thugs seizing power for themselves? > [@](#): > > The notion that impeaching the duly elected president is somehow “anti-democratic” is another absurdity. An election does not give a leader _carte blanche_ to rob his country blind and murder people who disapprove. Democracy isn’t simply a sort of religious ritual that confers a seamless mantle of legitimacy. It requires things like respect for the rule of law to work. When the President starts (say) having his relations corner the market in government contracts and having opponents “disappeared”, he _ought_ to be impeached. No-one was disappeared. No-one was murdered, other than by the fascists. The “impeachment” was undertaken after the parliament had been violently purged of members representing the party of the government and the Communist party, whose Russophile leanings made them primary targets for the murder gang currently sitting on Kiev. Obviously there was theft. Yanukovich is a crook. Timoschuk was a crook. Yuschenko was a crook. The current triumvirate are worse than crooks. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/531 "2014-03-04T21:12:13Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > There’s been a brutal right-wing fascist movement in the Ukraine for a long time, many of the current Svoboda and Right Sector thugs and organisations being descended from the CIA-backed OUM-B and -M of the 40s and 50s, who committed numerous atrocities in the name of anti-communism. The US didn’t have to create them. It did have the fund and organise them. There is a long and unhappy history of Ukrainian support for fascistic nationalists - which, given the equally long and unhappy history of massacre of Ukrainians by communists, particualrly the Stalinist terrorism of the 30s and various massacres since, and forced Russification, is understandable, if not forgivable. However, they are in absolute terms a small minority. They were not the prime movers behind the Euromadain protests. Recent efforts by Russian propaganda to label the lot of them as “fascists” harks back to the Stalinist use of terminology. > [@](#): > > What is the good reason to support a gang of murderous thugs seizing power for themselves? You classify them as “murderous thugs”. Interesting. > [@](#): > > No-one was disappeared. No-one was murdered, other than by the fascists. This is simply false. > [@](#): > > The “impeachment” was undertaken after the parliament had been violently purged of members representing the party of the government and the Communist party, whose Russophile leanings made them primary targets for the murder gang currently sitting on Kiev. This, too, is simply false. > [@](#): > > Obviously there was theft. Yanukovich is a crook. Timoschuk was a crook. Yuschenko was a crook. The current triumvirate are worse than crooks. Ukraine has problems with corruption it is true. Is there any reason you are claiming the current people are “worse”? ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/532 "2014-03-04T21:13:05Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You asked for a cite and I duly produced one, which you are hand-waving away what I produced as “nothing”. Which hardly strikes me as justified. How on earth does the existence of these CNN iReporters back up your claim that “there is little genuine appetite for succession”? > [@Malthus](#): > > Don’t be so coy. To contradict the site I produced of course. See above. Your “site” [sic] didn’t back up your claim. > [@Malthus](#): > > From what I’ve read and from what I’ve personally heard from people who live in the country whom I know. Anecdotal evidence, then? This doesn’t prove that “there is little genuine appetite for succession,” any more than the existence of these CNN iReporters does. > [@Malthus](#): > > 1. I do know that actual human beings who actually live in the country at issue are actually saying that the alleged public pressure is based on a small and unrepresentative group. I have provided a cite for that. You can hand-wave that away all you like, but it is in fact evidence. Is is evidence, alright: Evidence of the fact that a non-zero amount of Ukrainians _claim_ that “there is little genuine appetite for succession.” They might be right, and they might be wrong. We do not know. > [@Malthus](#): > > In short, I have good reasons to _reasonably conclude_ that these are “potemkin demonstrations” orchestrated from Moscow. Certainly, there is some home-grown pro-Moscow sentiment, but the notion that these demonstrations represent an authentic expression of popular will is risable. For God’s sake, man: _Why can’t it be both_? An authentic expression of popular will, supported and assisted and, in some part - quite possibly a large part - organized by Russia? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/533 "2014-03-04T21:14:00Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Perhaps by responding to the question laid out to you? You could, you know, “react” to them as opposed to try to bury them as deep as you can with…utter-nonsense. > > Cheers. I am once again stunned by your masterful argument. The only thing more convincing than calling someone’s arguments “nonsense” is … repeating it! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/534 "2014-03-04T21:26:08Z")
Great. Now we’ve moved on to passive-agressive behavior. Questions & cites posted: Lots. Coherent responses from **Malthus** : None. Unless “this is simply false” counts as…something. Guess it’s all a big joke to you. PD-- Care to tackle Steken’s [**post**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17162884&postcount=532)? May as well join you in your merriment. _:::shrug:::_ ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/535 "2014-03-04T21:29:00Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > How on earth does the existence of these CNN iReporters back up your claim that “there is little genuine appetite for succession”? > > See above. Your “site” [sic] didn’t back up your claim. > > Anecdotal evidence, then? This doesn’t prove that “there is little genuine appetite for succession,” any more than the existence of these CNN iReporters does. > > Is is evidence, alright: Evidence of the fact that a non-zero amount of Ukrainians _claim_ that “there is little genuine appetite for succession.” They might be right, and they might be wrong. We do not know. Please be consistent. Either consider anecdotal evidence as “evidence” - or don’t. In my opinion it _is_ “evidence”, albeit not the strongest; it is not like poll data created by a disinterested scientific pollster. But then, you can hardly have strong evidence of that sort under such circumstances. What you can do, is make some reasonable assumptions based on the evidence you do know. > [@](#): > > For God’s sake, man: _Why can’t it be both_? An authentic expression of popular will, supported and assisted and, in some part - quite possibly a large part - organized by Russia? It can be, it is possible - but it is not likely, when you add all the evidence together. To wit: 1. Anecdotally - not much actual popular previous support for succession (yes, yes I know you do not accept this as “evidence” and so have not bothered to refute it); 2. It is in Russia’s interests for there to be counter-demonstrations; 3. Russia busses demonstrators in from Russia; 4. Demonstrations break out, clearly armed with flags and signs made in Russia; 5. … which just happen to co-incide (amazing co-incidence) with a Russian invasion of Crimea. Add all of this together, and the smart money is on these demonstrations not being a genuine expression of popular will. Yes, it cannot be _proved_ like one would prove something in a court of law. However, the actual evidence, based on what we do know, is persuasive. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/536 "2014-03-04T21:30:22Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Great. Now we’ve moved on to passive-agressive behavior. > > Questions & cites posted: Lots. Coherent responses from **Malthus** : None. Unless “this is simply false” counts as…something. > > Guess it’s all a big joke to you. > > PD-- Care to tackle Steken’s [**post**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17162884&postcount=532)? May as well join you in your merriment. > > _:::shrug:::_ ‘Let’s you and _him_ fight’ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/537 "2014-03-04T21:35:26Z")
Alrighty then. Thank you for your efforts. Here’s hoping for a peaceful solution. Peace out and good night. … Not quite what you were hoping for, eh, **Redfury**? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/538 "2014-03-04T21:36:14Z")
There seems to be a lot of dreamy thinking, from the likes of Malthus, people who prefer to believe the pleasant but implausible, like the fascist-led coup is really the embodiment of democracy. They are, [in fact, fascisti](http://www.channel4.com/news/kiev-svoboda-far-right-protests-right-sector-riot-police): . > [@](#): > > "They are the ones throwing molotovs and trying to kill policemen, the most violent element fight at European Square. > > “ **When left-wing groups tried to join the protests they were attacked and beaten by fascists**. Svoboda are leading ideologically now. Fascism is like a fashion now, with more and more people getting involved.” and [racist](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion): > [@](#): > > You’d never know from most of the reporting that far-right nationalists and fascists have been at the heart of the protests and attacks on government buildings. One of the three main opposition parties heading the campaign is the hard-right antisemitic Svoboda, whose leader Oleh Tyahnybok claims that a “Moscow-Jewish mafia” controls Ukraine. But US senator **John McCain was happy to share a platform with him in Kiev last month**. **The party, now running the city of Lviv, led a 15,000-strong torchlit march earlier this month in memory of the Ukrainian fascist leader Stepan Bandera, whose forces fought with the Nazis in the second world war and took part in massacres of Jews**. and [treasonous:](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37761.htm) > [@](#): > > After a month of confrontation, President Viktor Yanukovych gave in, signed the EC-prepared surrender and escaped their rough revolutionary justice by the skin of his teeth. **The ruling party MPs were beaten and dispersed, the communists almost lynched, the opposition have the parliament all to themselves, and they’ve appointed new ministers and taken over the Ukraine**. and [backed by the American government](http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/20/ukraine-drifting-toward-civil-war-great-power-confrontation/): > [@](#): > > In an eight minute, 46 second speech at the National Press Club sponsored by the US-Ukraine Foundation, Chevron, and Ukraine-in-Washington Lobby Group, Nuland boasted that Washington has spent $5 billion to foment agitation to bring Ukraine into the EU. Once captured by the EU, Ukraine will be “helped” by the West acting through the IMF. Nuland, of course, presented the IMF as Ukraine’s rescuer, not as the iron hand of the West that will squeeze all life out of Ukraine’s struggling economy. > > Nuland’s audience consisted of all the people who will be enriched by the looting and by connections to a Washington-appointed Ukrainian government. Just look at the large Chevron sign next to which Nuland speaks, and you will know what it is all about. and motivated by the desire to [force neoliberal economic policies](http://original.antiwar.com/mcgovern/2014/03/02/ukraine-one-regime-change-too-many/) on people who quite rightly want nothing to do with them: > [@](#): > > Nuland was recorded as saying: “Yats is the guy. He’s got the economic experience, the governing experience. He’s the guy you know. … Yats will need all the help he can get to stave off collapse in the ex-Soviet state. He has warned there is an urgent need for unpopular cutting of subsidies and social payments before Ukraine can improve.” > > And guess what. The stopgap government formed after the coup designated Nuland’s guy Yats, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, prime minister! What luck! Yats is 39 and has served as head of the central bank, foreign minister and economic minister. And, as designated pinch-hitter-prime-minister, he has already talked about the overriding need for “ **responsible government,” one willing to commit “political suicide,” as he put it, by taking unpopular social measures**. That sounds like democracy to me. Seize power in a brutal coup. Do things you know people don’t support and would never vote for. Policies that would [wreck ukrainian industry](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion): > [@](#): > > Not that they have much time for the EU, which has been pushing Ukraine to sign an association agreement, offering **loans for austerity** , as part of a **German-led drive to open up Ukraine** for western companies. It was Viktor Yanukovych’s abandonment of the EU option – after which **Putin offered a $15bn bailout** – that triggered the protests. > > But Ukrainians are deeply divided about both European integration and the protests – largely along an axis between the largely Russian-speaking east and south (where the Communist party still commands significant support), and traditionally nationalist western Ukraine. **Industry in the east is dependent on Russian markets** , and would be crushed by EU competition. Hence the resort to [violence](https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/20/pers-f20.html): > [@](#): > > Following the failure of the Ukrainian opposition and its Western supporters to overthrow President Viktor Yanukovych by means of demonstrations and replace his regime with an EU-friendly government, armed fascist gangs are being mobilized to achieve the same aim. > > On Tuesday, Kiev witnessed the bloodiest clashes since the protests began three months ago. **Twenty-six people, including several policemen, were killed, and some 1,000 were injured when gangs armed with paving stones, guns and firebombs engaged in violent street battles with government security forces**. > > … > > **The fact that Berlin and Washington are prepared to exploit the services of paramilitary fascist gangs** for their own purposes exposes the official propaganda, which states that what is at issue in Ukraine is the rule of law and democracy. In fact, the aim is to replace the regime of Yanukovych with one that will distance itself from Russia, subordinate itself to the European Union and \*\*impose brutal austerity policies on the Ukrainian working class. > > \*\*This is also the aim of the opposition led by Klitschko, Yatsenyuk and Oleh Tyahnybok, whose Svoboda party openly celebrates the Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera and espouses anti-Semitism and racism. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/539 "2014-03-04T21:36:28Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Alrighty then. Thank you for your efforts. > > Here’s hoping for a peaceful solution. Peace out and good night. > > … Not quite what you were hoping for, eh, **Redfury**? 😉 _Applauds_ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/540 "2014-03-04T21:41:27Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > 1. Anecdotally - not much actual popular previous support for succession (yes, yes I know you do not accept this as “evidence” and so have not bothered to refute it); This is beginning to annoy me. It’s secession. The Crimea seeks to secede. If the Ukraine cedes it that will be the cession of the Crimea to Russia, or some independent government. True, Russia may succeed the Ukraine as the hegemons of the Crimea, but the putative popular previous support would be for secession, not succession. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=28)