# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/541 "2014-03-04T21:45:47Z")
Fwiw, ‘succession’ involves thrones, monarchs, their kids and shit. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/542 "2014-03-04T21:47:08Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > There seems to be a lot of dreamy thinking, from the likes of Malthus, people who prefer to believe the pleasant but implausible, like the fascist-led coup is really the embodiment of democracy. > > They are, [in fact, fascisti](http://www.channel4.com/news/kiev-svoboda-far-right-protests-right-sector-riot-police): > . > > and [racist](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion): > > and [treasonous:](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37761.htm) > > and [backed by the American government](http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/20/ukraine-drifting-toward-civil-war-great-power-confrontation/): > > and motivated by the desire to [force neoliberal economic policies](http://original.antiwar.com/mcgovern/2014/03/02/ukraine-one-regime-change-too-many/) on people who quite rightly want nothing to do with them: > > That sounds like democracy to me. Seize power in a brutal coup. Do things you know people don’t support and would never vote for. Policies that would [wreck ukrainian industry](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion): > > Hence the resort to [violence](https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/20/pers-f20.html): Yes, it is amazing how those folks in Ukraine, who are of course nothing but a bunch of fascists, have risked their lives for no better reason that to help the US sell the country to that paragon of oppression - the EU. Clearly they do not know what is good for themselves, and must be gently corrected by the loving hand of their Russian brothers. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/543 "2014-03-04T21:50:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yes, it is amazing how those folks in Ukraine, who are of course nothing but a bunch of fascists, have risked their lives for no better reason that to help the US sell the country to that paragon of oppression - the EU. > > Clearly they do not know what is good for themselves, and must be gently corrected by the loving hand of their Russian brothers. > > :dubious: Who are merely being playful in sending in troops, warships, helicopters and other gentle instruments of correction (while the US, who ‘obviously’ orchestrated this whole thing seems to be in stunned WTF mode…a ploy no doubt). No, this isn’t a land grab by the Russians…perish the thought. It’s obviously a land grab by the US to bring the Ukraine kicking and screaming into the EU! I guess because the EU is full of fascists and racists…or something. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/544 "2014-03-04T21:51:33Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > There seems to be a lot of dreamy thinking, from the likes of Malthus, people who prefer to believe the pleasant but implausible, like the fascist-led coup is really the embodiment of democracy. It’s weird isn’t it. It’s like 50-60 years of US geo-political intervention across the world didn’t happen and theres no template being followed here. Theree is nothing remotely new about what the US is doing in Kiev, nor is there anything remotely new in how it’s being sanitised for the dmestic audience Sandinista vs. Contras ring any bells? Those terrible Marxist democrats … ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/545 "2014-03-04T21:51:37Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There is a long and unhappy history of Ukrainian support for fascistic nationalists - which, given the equally long and unhappy history of massacre of Ukrainians by communists, particualrly the Stalinist terrorism of the 30s and various massacres since, and forced Russification, is understandable, if not forgivable. > > However, they are in absolute terms a small minority. They were not the prime movers behind the Euromadain protests. They were, however, the ones who stormed government buildings, brutalised members of parliament and coerced the change in government. Tyanybok is also one of the three leaders of the opposition movement. Okay, now his job is done he’s been sidelined, as Nuland predicted (or engineered, as the case may be) and Yatsenyuk can get down to the serious business of raping the country for his fatcat overlords. Nonetheless, the fascists were the head of the spear and allowed all this to happen. They also continue to cause trouble with their declaration that Russian is no longer one of the Ukraine’s official languages, all the talk about restarting their nuclear arsenal, and generally making a nuisance of themselves. Yats might not be a fascist, but as someone who took power in a coup initiated by fascists and plans to use the power of the state to force unpopular policies on the people at the point of a gun in the service of a plutocratic elite he is certainly doing a very good impersonation of one. > [@](#): > > Recent efforts by Russian propaganda to label the lot of them as “fascists” harks back to the Stalinist use of terminology. > > You classify them as “murderous thugs”. Interesting. Well, they murdered dozens of people. And they are thugs. No sophistication, psychological serial killer stuff. Just beating people to death with paving slabs. Molotov cocktails. Guns. Thugs. > [@](#): > > This is simply false. > > This, too, is simply false. Both of these things were factually accurate statements that I made. > [@](#): > > Ukraine has problems with corruption it is true. Is there any reason you are claiming the current people are “worse”? Because they aren’t just lining their pockets, they are: 1. killing people; 2. overthrowing democracy; and 3. planning on systematically strip-mining the country of all wealth through neo-liberal economic policies. Compared to a bit of self-interested larceny it’s really quite bad. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/546 "2014-03-04T21:52:22Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yes, it is amazing how those folks in Ukraine, who are of course nothing but a bunch of fascists, have risked their lives for no better reason that to help the US sell the country to that paragon of oppression - the EU. > > Clearly they do not know what is good for themselves, and must be gently corrected by the loving hand of their Russian brothers. > > :dubious: Their Russian brothers who of course have never been accused of racism, anti-Semitism or fascism or near-fascism. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/547 "2014-03-04T21:56:03Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > It’s weird isn’t it. It’s like 50-60 years of US geo-political intervention across the world didn’t happen and theres no template being followed here. > > Theree is nothing remotely new about what the US is doing in Kiev, nor is there anything remotely new in how it’s being sanitised for the dmestic audience > > Sandinista vs. Contras ring any bells? Those terrible Marxist democrats … Yes, I mean the National Endowment for Democracy are involved, possibly the most sinister organisation in the world today, specifically created because the CIA and USAID and company had all established such a mind-bogglingly awful reputation for overthrowing government and massacring their supporters. When NED arrives, democracy dies. But some people prefer to live in cloud cuckoo land, where America doesn’t have a proper healthcare system because of the holy efficiency of the private sector, where those Iraqi WMDs are gonna turn up in Syria at any moment, where George Bush actually won an election, and where America is a selfless force for good in the world, going around helping lesser nations onto the path of righteousness. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/548 "2014-03-04T22:04:41Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Yes, I mean the National Endowment for Democracy are involved, possibly the most sinister organisation in the world today, specifically created because the CIA and USAID and company had all established such a mind-bogglingly awful reputation for overthrowing government and massacring their supporters. When NED arrives, democracy dies. But some people prefer to live in cloud cuckoo land, where America doesn’t have a proper healthcare system because of the holy efficiency of the private sector, where those Iraqi WMDs are gonna turn up in Syria at any moment, where George Bush actually won an election, and where America is a selfless force for good in the world, going around helping lesser nations onto the path of righteousness. BTW, if it is me you are referring to with this bizzare rant - you may as well know I’m not an American. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/549 "2014-03-04T22:10:41Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Who are merely being playful in sending in troops, warships, helicopters and other gentle instruments of correction (while the US, who ‘obviously’ orchestrated this whole thing seems to be in stunned WTF mode…a ploy no doubt). No, this isn’t a land grab by the Russians…perish the thought. It’s obviously a land grab by the US to bring the Ukraine kicking and screaming into the EU! I guess because the EU is full of fascists and racists…or something. Neo-liberals. They are worse that fascists and racists _put together_. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/550 "2014-03-04T22:49:11Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > An election does not give a leader _carte blanche_ to rob his country blind and murder people who disapprove. Democracy isn’t simply a sort of religious ritual that confers a seamless mantle of legitimacy. It requires things like respect for the rule of law to work. When the President starts (say) having his relations corner the market in government contracts and having opponents “disappeared”, he _ought_ to be impeached. Are you saying that a democratically elected government cannot shoot violent protesters if they must be shot to defend the institution of governing? Where does peaceful protest end and violent attacks on government property and security forces begin. That can be a cloudy line that must be interpreted during chaos and civil disorder and extremes of passion on both sides. Which side deserves protection? The elected government or the right to protest. Cutting a gas deal at a cheaper rate for Ukraine should not justify the breakdown in civil order that forced an elected government to fall. ---
**Author:** ![iLemming](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90db22/32.png) [@iLemming](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iLemming)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/551 "2014-03-04T22:51:08Z")
So, this is all about Putin’s wet dream of reëstablishing the Russian empire, together with a Russo-Asian economic bloc to counter the EU. To do this, he needs to vacuum up as many of the ex Soviet states he can, especially Ukraine / Crimea. Therefore, any and all threats Obama and Europe make amount to little more than trifles light as air. At least, this is what an analyst said yesterday… [U.S. struggles to counter Putin’s empire building](http://www.vancouversun.com/news/struggles+counter+Putin+empire+building/9574182/story.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/552 "2014-03-04T22:51:15Z")
Both super powers have studied all of the options and moves of the other side in the Ukrainian take over bid with Putin now saying your move Obama: [http://news.yahoo.com/russia-test-launches-advanced-ballistic-missile-reports-194905394.html](http://news.yahoo.com/russia-test-launches-advanced-ballistic-missile-reports-194905394.html) > [@](#): > > Russia on Tuesday carried out a successful test-launch of an “advanced” intercontinental ballistic missile, state news agencies reported amid a… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/553 "2014-03-04T22:56:46Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > Both super powers have studied all of the options and moves of the other side in the Ukrainian take over bid with Putin now saying your move Obama: [http://news.yahoo.com/russia-test-launches-advanced-ballistic-missile-reports-194905394.html](http://news.yahoo.com/russia-test-launches-advanced-ballistic-missile-reports-194905394.html) Wow, what a strange coincidence! :dubious: And the US, who are at the heart of all of this, we countered with…um…something about Obamacare I think. I’d have to check the headlines, but pretty sure we had this Obamacare bomb ready for this event, so we could trump this obvious last minute panicked response from Putin and Russia, who were obviously caught unawares by this blatant US attempted takeover (for the EU). ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/554 "2014-03-04T22:57:43Z")
I wonder if Ukrainian support for Russia will erode since the invasion? Your great grandfather may have immigrated from Russia. But as a Ukrainian it must sting to see armed Russian troops on your streets. If Russian troops fire on Ukrainian Russians that could sway that region’s support. It would be ironic if Russia’s invasion united The Ukraine against a common enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/555 "2014-03-04T23:14:38Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Wow, what a strange coincidence! :dubious: And the US, who are at the heart of all of this, we countered with…um…something about Obamacare I think. I’d have to check the headlines, but pretty sure we had this Obamacare bomb ready for this event, so we could trump this obvious last minute panicked response from Putin and Russia, who were obviously caught unawares by this blatant US attempted takeover (for the EU). I’m not sure if I’m whooshed or something. But these missile tests are planned well in advance and notice is given to relevant parties. In this case, notice had been given to the US prior to the crisis breaking out in Ukraine. These tests are routine and don’t have anything to do with the current conflict. Previous tests have been carried out at October 10 and December 27 last year. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/556 "2014-03-04T23:20:56Z")
> [@Henrichek](#): > > I’m not sure if I’m whooshed or something. But these missile tests are planned well in advance and notice is given to relevant parties. In this case, notice had been given to the US prior to the crisis breaking out in Ukraine. > > These tests are routine and don’t have anything to do with the current conflict. Previous tests have been carried out at October 10 and December 27 last year. It was definitely tongue in cheek…basically the other side of the (to me) conspiracy theory horseshit we’ve been getting in these various threads. I will fess up and say I didn’t actually know that there had been earlier tests and I didn’t read through the link, just thought it was a good opportunity to toss in a counter CT type comment. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/557 "2014-03-04T23:26:10Z")
> [@iLemming](#): > > So, this is all about Putin’s wet dream of reëstablishing the Russian empire, together with a Russo-Asian economic bloc to counter the EU. To do this, he needs to vacuum up as many of the ex Soviet states he can, especially Ukraine / Crimea. Therefore, any and all threats Obama and Europe make amount to little more than trifles light as air. At least, this is what an analyst said yesterday… > > [U.S. struggles to counter Putin’s empire building](http://www.vancouversun.com/news/struggles+counter+Putin+empire+building/9574182/story.html) If Putin wants a Russo-Asian economic bloc, he does not need Crimea or Ukraine or anything to Russia’s west; he needs to look east and south, and cozy up to China and India. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/558 "2014-03-04T23:27:30Z")
For the record, here’s a cite: [http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iQejcp-E1YIsa9G6nPLoLDbwqQOA?docId=b24372f9-8978-4e4a-8836-9c5af255b58d&hl=en](http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iQejcp-E1YIsa9G6nPLoLDbwqQOA?docId=b24372f9-8978-4e4a-8836-9c5af255b58d&hl=en) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/559 "2014-03-04T23:29:06Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Wow, what a strange coincidence! :dubious: And the US, who are at the heart of all of this, we countered with…um…something about Obamacare I think. I’d have to check the headlines, but pretty sure we had this Obamacare bomb ready for this event, so we could trump this obvious last minute panicked response from Putin and Russia, who were obviously caught unawares by this blatant US attempted takeover (for the EU). Once again, [what makes you think the U.S. and EU are even aligned here](http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/feb/07/eu-us-diplomat-victoria-nuland-phonecall-leaked-video)? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/560 "2014-03-04T23:39:13Z")
Can someone exactly explain what the US’s interests are here? Is there some conflicting interest as far as Europe and America are concerned? Europe has some distinct trade issues, but does the US really? If the US spent a bunch of time and money secretly orchestrating this, what the hell for? America has got to show strength so that Russia doesn’t think it can steal Alaska? People talk about how this is some obvious American pattern, but part of that pattern is usually a distinct economic goal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=29)