# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/601 "2014-03-05T15:01:58Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > I never claimed that the occupation was legal, but I do understand that Russia has interests in the region. So it’s ok for a country that has “interests” in a region to occupy a sovereign country in that region? I am trying to figure your argument out. Yes, if you look at a robber and murderer and he robs and murders someone you may say it is “predictable”. But you seem to be defending it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/602 "2014-03-05T15:03:21Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > I thought I was clarifying a media misunderstanding about “invasions” i.e. there hasn’t been one. Of course there has been one. United States has the right to keep a certain number of troops in Guantanamo Bay. But if those troops show up in Havana, that would definitely be an “invasion”, wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/603 "2014-03-05T15:06:35Z")
I’m _not sure_ that comparison works … You understand there is a legal agreement for Russian troops to be stationed in Crimea? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/604 "2014-03-05T15:08:19Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > That’s fascinating. No really. I particularly like the idea of “sins” like this is some kind of bible study. > > Back to John Kerry’s lies and bullshit, and his, erm, clumsy attempt to portray, contain and morally judge Putin’s actions in a vaccumn. > > Of course, it’s now clear Putin’s forces are actually in Crimea by legal agrereement so comparisons with various and ongoing US invasions of sovereignty are not relevant. I am no more a Christian than I am an American. 😃 “Sins” is merely colloquial English for ‘moral wrongs’. No-one seriously believes that what Putin’s forces are curently doing in Crimea is actually covered by the long-term lease of its Black Seas fleet. That dog won’t hunt. [And before you get all fussed, I’m not a dog-owner, or a hunter - the phrase means, in essence, ‘that won’t work’] ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/605 "2014-03-05T15:09:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course there has been one. United States has the right to keep a certain number of troops in Guantanamo Bay. But if those troops show up in Havana, that would definitely be an “invasion”, wouldn’t you say? If they’re pretending to be locals, it doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/606 "2014-03-05T15:10:07Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > I’m _not sure_ that comparison works … > > You understand there is a legal agreement for Russian troops to be stationed in Crimea? No. There is a legal agreement for Russian troops to be stationed in several particular areas of Crimea, namely their bases that they are leasing. They are currently outside of those areas. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/607 "2014-03-05T15:10:59Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > If they’re pretending to be locals, it doesn’t count. After all, _anyone_ can buy American Army uniforms in surplus stores. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/608 "2014-03-05T15:14:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > After all, _anyone_ can buy American Army uniforms in surplus stores. And if a bunch of heavily-armed, militarily-trained English-speaking men just happened to be leading an insurrection in the middle of Havana, that would clearly be a sign of a genuine public desire among the Cuban populace for regime change and not in any way suspicious or indicative of foreign meddling. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/609 "2014-03-05T15:18:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. There is a legal agreement for Russian troops to be stationed in several particular areas of Crimea, namely their bases that they are leasing. They are currently outside of those areas. You seem to be having enormous trouble with the concept of what some mainstream media like to call an “invasion”. If you are trying to twist that into being a non-sovereign territory ‘invasion’ then I guess people reading will make their own minds up. As for me, I’m done on the legal point - it’s completely clear and unambiguous: there has not been an ‘invasion’ of Crimea in any sense whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/610 "2014-03-05T15:20:57Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > As for me, I’m done on the legal point - it’s completely clear and unambiguous. Yes, it is clear and unambiguous that Russian troops are allowed to be on Russian bases in Crimea that they are leasing. It is also clear and unambiguous that the troops being outside of those bases, occupying the Parliament and other government structures and patrolling civilian areas is way outside of those legal agreements. As I asked you, would US troops occupying government offices in Havana be classified as an “invasion”? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/611 "2014-03-05T15:26:32Z")
And as I said, what does the Crimean Parlimant say about an issue which is off my origina point? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/612 "2014-03-05T15:31:14Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > And as I said, what does the Crimean Parlimant say about an issue which is off my origina point? Does the Crimean Parliament have the right to decide whether foreign troops can enter Crimea? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/613 "2014-03-05T15:31:32Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > What does the Crimean Parliament say about your issue? Whatever the Russian troops occupying their building wants them to say? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/614 "2014-03-05T15:34:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Does the Crimean Parliament have the right to decide whether foreign troops can enter Crimea? Did the protesters in the Maidan have the right to aggressively overthrow the standing Ukrainian government by violent means? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/615 "2014-03-05T15:35:10Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > And as I said, what does the Crimean Parlimant say about an issue which is off my origina point? Do you mean the Crimean Parliament seized by those same gunmen? That parliament? > **[Crimean parliament seized by unknown pro-Russian gunmen](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/crimean-parliament-seized-by-unknown-pro-russian-gunmen)** > > Gunmen storm Crimea's regional administrative complex in Simferopol and hoist Russian flag above parliament building > **[Verkhovna Rada of Crimea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Council_of_Crimea)** > > Verkhovna Rada of Crimea or the Supreme Council of Crimea, officially the Supreme Council of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea,\[a\] was the Ukrainian legislative body for the Autonomous Republic of Crimea before the annexation of Crimea by Russia in 2014. > The last election of parliament took place on 31 October 2010 (see 2010 Crimean parliamentary election) and was won by the Party of Regions and the Communist Party of Ukraine. > On 27 February 2014, unidentified armed men took over the parliame... ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/616 "2014-03-05T15:35:48Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Did the protesters in the Maidan have the right to aggressively overthrow the standing Ukrainian government by violent means? No. Now you answer the question. Does the Crimean Parliament have the right to decide whether foreign troops can enter Crimea? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/617 "2014-03-05T15:37:35Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Did the protesters in the Maidan have the right to aggressively overthrow the standing Ukrainian government by violent means? Is this a _tu quoque_ derby? 😕 The difference, of course, between the euromaidan protestors and the gunmen in control of Crimea is that the one is an indigenous protest movement and the other is a foreign invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/618 "2014-03-05T15:39:38Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Is this a _tu quoque_ derby? 😕 > > The difference, of course, between the euromaidan protestors and the gunmen in control of Crimea is that the one is an indigenous protest movement and the other is a foreign invasion. Well, there is another slight difference - in that the Euromaidan protestors did not remove Yanukovich from power. The Ukrainian Parliament did, under Ukrainian Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/619 "2014-03-05T15:39:58Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The difference, of course, between the euromaidan protestors and the gunmen in control of Crimea is that the one is an indigenous protest movement and the other is a foreign invasion. Although some keep claiming it’s the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/620 "2014-03-05T15:42:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Well, there is another slight difference - in that the Euromaidan protestors did not remove Yanukovich from power. The Ukrainian Parliament did, under Ukrainian Constitution. Good point. Though to be fair, he’d already fled at that point I think. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=32)