# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/641 "2014-03-05T16:14:19Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Oh, sorry…I missed that. My apologies. > > It’s certainly evidence, though it’s not conclusive. But what it shows is another view point, and one that runs contrary to the theme of many folks in this thread. Hard for me to really wrap my head around Russia’s actions and how people are swallowing what seems obvious to me is a (long planned) power grab in an effort to start reconstituting their old empire via direct military action. I could not agree more. Moreover, the op-ed agrees with what I’m hearing from people I know who live there - there simply is no legitimate appetite for splitting the country, aside from a tiny minority. All anecdotal of course, but in these circumstances it’s as good evidence as one could reasonably obtain. What ois particularly troubling to me is that Russia, and its supporters, seem to be reading from a Stalin-era playbook - its opponents are labelled as “fascists” and “foreign stooges” no matter what their actual motives, the use of the “big lie” blatantly contradicting reality without the slightest care that it is transparent (for example, “there is no Russian invasion in Crimea”). It’s chillingly Orwellian. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/642 "2014-03-05T16:14:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Let’s take that as a given. The only people left to vote is opposition, who voted to impeach. The vote was by a huge majority, when you count those who didn’t stick around as “no” votes. So - what exactly is illegal in that impeachment? That it was made under duress. If you don’t buy that, fine, but I can’t take a vote seriously that comes under those violent circumstances with a mob controlling the government buildings ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/643 "2014-03-05T16:15:50Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That it was made under duress. But you claimed that only the opposition voted. Are you now saying that the opposition voted under duress? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/644 "2014-03-05T16:17:41Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This is somewhat circular reasoning - Russia takes the place over to avoid the possibility of resistance to … Russia taking the place over? Yes, in order to successfully take the place over, it is prudent to disable the control centers. > [@Malthus](#): > > Was there ever any likelihood of Ukraine (which is, as everyone knows, an economic and military basket-case and very dependent on Russia) forcibly booting Russia out of its Black Seas base, in violation of its agreements, thus giving Russia a perfect _casus belli_? Not until it started to look very much like that to Putin. With a possible revolution in progress and an overthrow of a Russian friendly government, why would you expect him to just sit on his hands? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/645 "2014-03-05T16:18:13Z")
The opposition voted for a interim government the day before. Mob rushes in and they vote for impeachment. All perfectly normal, huh? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/646 "2014-03-05T16:19:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, legally there has been. Having foreign troops occupy government buildings, patrol your streets and control your cities is, legally (as well as realistically), an “invasion”. right, for you ‘invasion’ = occupation: so you’re saying it’s like a house invasion. I saw that once on The Wire. I’m not sure the rest of the world is on the same planet right now but it sounds fun there. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/647 "2014-03-05T16:20:15Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That it was made under duress. If you don’t buy that, fine, but I can’t take a vote seriously that comes under those violent circumstances. That raises the problem of what one does in circumstances of popular rebellion. Naturally, having a rebellion on the doorstep of the legislature calls into question whether that legislature is operating under duress or not - that’s unavoidable. So what is to be done? I’d say creating an interim government and holding elections under the scrutiny of impartial international observers is the best way forward in such circumstances, to restore legitimacy. I would not say that re-imposing the deposed leader by foreign military coercion is a good way to restore legitimacy - how legitimate can a government be, that needs foreign troops to impose? Let alone having foreign powers help themselves to slices of territory with the excuse that they are ‘protecting minorities’! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/648 "2014-03-05T16:22:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’d say creating an interim government and holding elections under the scrutiny of impartial international observers is the best way forward in such circumstances, to restore legitimacy. Which is exactly what they were planning before the protesters moved into the buildings. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/649 "2014-03-05T16:23:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Yes, in order to successfully take the place over, it is prudent to disable the control centers. > > Not until it started to look very much like that to Putin. With a possible revolution in progress and an overthrow of a Russian friendly government, why would you expect him to just sit on his hands? What you are missing is the question - why take the place over in the first place? I disagree that a regime change in Kiev was in any way a resonable threat to the Black Seas bases. The regime in Kiev is weak as hell. No reasonable person would conclude that they are at all likely to pick a shooting war with Russia. That defies sense. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/650 "2014-03-05T16:25:37Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Which is exactly what they were planning before the protesters moved into the buildings. The protestors were protesting having the current fellow in place for another year. The issue now is - what is reasonable now, once the current fellow flees the country? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/651 "2014-03-05T16:32:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What you are missing is the question - why take the place over in the first place? > > I disagree that a regime change in Kiev was in any way a resonable threat to the Black Seas bases. The regime in Kiev is weak as hell. No reasonable person would conclude that they are at all likely to pick a shooting war with Russia. That defies sense. Putin rushed to act. Having the benefit of even a few days of hind-sight of events in Kiev, we have the luxury to say that the Kiev regime was weak and would not threaten Russia’s Black Sea interests. But he did not know how things would play out and took the most defensive (and opportunistic) course of action with what information he did have. We’re Monday morning quarterbacking here. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/652 "2014-03-05T16:39:21Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Putin rushed to act. Having the benefit of even a few days of hind-sight of events in Kiev, we have the luxury to say that the Kiev regime was weak and would not threaten Russia’s Black Sea interests. But he did not know how things would play out and took the most defensive (and opportunistic) course of action with what information he did have. We’re Monday morning quarterbacking here. I don’t agree in the slightest. Russia _always_ knew that Ukraine was weak and dependant on it - before, during, and after the events. There is simply no way that a new regime in Kiev would be able to magically make Ukraine powerful and independent of Russia overnight! Russia knows this like it knows that stones do not fall up. It is an obvious reality. The notion that Russia had legitimate fears for its bases is a non-starter. Russia did not even attempt to use that as a justification, as far as I know - its justification was ‘protection of minorities’. Frankly, I’m amazed at the lack of anti-minority actions in Ukraine so far (I’d have thought that the Russians would at least have ‘created’ a few, if only for the look of the thing). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/653 "2014-03-05T16:43:00Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I don’t agree in the slightest. Russia _always_ knew that Ukraine was weak and dependant on it - before, during, and after the events. There is simply no way that a new regime in Kiev would be able to magically make Ukraine powerful and independent of Russia overnight! Russia knows this like it knows that stones do not fall up. It is an obvious reality. > > The notion that Russia had legitimate fears for its bases is a non-starter. Russia did not even attempt to use that as a justification, as far as I know - its justification was ‘protection of minorities’. > > Frankly, I’m amazed at the lack of anti-minority actions in Ukraine so far (I’d have thought that the Russians would at least have ‘created’ a few, if only for the look of the thing). Based on some of the responses in this thread, well, why would they need to bother? People are swallowing their line without the effort after all. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/654 "2014-03-05T16:47:55Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Did the protesters in the Maidan have the right to aggressively overthrow the standing Ukrainian government by violent means? Perhaps. Perhaps not. How does this entitle Russia to interfere with the affairs of a sovereign nation? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/655 "2014-03-05T16:50:04Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Based on some of the responses in this thread, well, why would they need to bother? People are swallowing their line without the effort after all. True. To top the irony sweepstakes: [Putin among Nobel Peace nominees but Ukraine might figure too | Reuters](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/04/us-nobel-peace-idUSBREA231R920140304) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/656 "2014-03-05T16:52:38Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > True. > > To top the irony sweepstakes: [Putin among Nobel Peace nominees but Ukraine might figure too | Reuters](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/04/us-nobel-peace-idUSBREA231R920140304) Oh please please please PLEASE with sugar on top I wish they’d give the Nobel Peace Prize to Putin. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/657 "2014-03-05T17:02:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The notion that Russia had legitimate fears for its bases is a non-starter. Russia did not even attempt to use that as a justification, as far as I know - its justification was ‘protection of minorities’. > > Frankly, I’m amazed at the lack of anti-minority actions in Ukraine so far (I’d have thought that the Russians would at least have ‘created’ a few, if only for the look of the thing). I completely agree with you on this point. The ‘protection of minorities’ is a ruse. However, I continue to believe that the instability in Ukraine was an opportunity for Putin to try to claim Crimea. A place with a majority Russian speaking population and a large Russian naval base. I also think that he did not know for sure whether he’d have to fight his way through later, so he jumped at the chance to grab it while the focus remained on Kiev. A decision which he is probably having some serious regrets right about now. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/658 "2014-03-05T17:04:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Perhaps. Perhaps not. How does this entitle Russia to interfere with the affairs of a sovereign nation? Well, perhaps it does and perhaps it doesn’t. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/659 "2014-03-05T17:07:11Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > A decision which he is probably having some serious regrets right about now. I don’t think he’s regretting it. I am fairly certain he is going to get away with it with no serious consequences. As I said, Putin considers the West to be decadent, soft, weak and greedy and thinks the Western governments are not going to inconvenience themselves in any way or put any stress on their economies for the sake of Crimea. And I think he is correct. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/660 "2014-03-05T17:25:26Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > True. > > To top the irony sweepstakes: [Putin among Nobel Peace nominees but Ukraine might figure too | Reuters](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/04/us-nobel-peace-idUSBREA231R920140304) Anyone can be nominated-- it doesn’t really mean much. I suspect he gets nominated every year. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=34)