# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/681 "2014-03-05T23:15:02Z")
> [@Henrichek](#): > > There is fascist thuggery going on alright. > > Here’s a video of Maidan people attending a regional political session: > > [http://youtu.be/BE-E3XpI9rM](http://youtu.be/BE-E3XpI9rM) > > My understanding is that things like this is going on in many places in Ukraine. I think duress is the word best describing the situation. I must be missing something. Where’s the thuggery in that vid? That these guys look scary? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/682 "2014-03-05T23:16:57Z")
> [@Henrichek](#): > > At the time of the shootings, police officers had reported taking fire from unknown snipers, so it’s not impossible that there has been a third party at work. However, I the phone call is not proof of this. > > I think the phone call is genuine, but the information regarding the sniping is hearsay. A forensic investigation would have been useful, but it was a higher priority for the new regime to impose Russian language restrictions, it seems. Huh? What Russian language restrictions? 😕 Are you referring to the vetoed bill that would have removed a previous minority official language law? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/683 "2014-03-05T23:20:32Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So…a supposed leaked call between EU’s foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonia’s foreign affairs minister Urmas Paet which ‘apparently claims a doctor told him both protesters and police were shot by the same snipers during clashes between the two groups that escalated violently on February 20’. I mean, that’s pretty solid for you Red…there might actually be something to this. If you can’t trust an unnamed ‘doctor’ who told someone this in a supposed intercepted phone call, who can you trust? Man, I wonder what Fox News has to say about this… Yup, who would know the facts better than a visiting Estonian minister, who clearly got the straight goods from … someone he talked to. I wonder how this doctor came to know it. But then, doctors know a lot of things. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/684 "2014-03-05T23:22:24Z")
> [@Henrichek](#): > > I think the phone call is genuine, but the information regarding the sniping is hearsay. A forensic investigation would have been useful, but it was a higher priority for the new regime to impose Russian language restrictions, it seems. You know, that point was addressed upthread. It was apparently a move to rescind regional “official languages” - the move passed by the barest of margins and then was vetoed by the interim President. So clearly the fascist nationalists aren’t having a free hand. > **[Language policy in Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine#Proposals_for_repeal_and_revision)** > > Language policy in Ukraine is based on its Constitution, international treaties and on domestic legislation. According to article 10 of the Constitution, Ukrainian is the official language of Ukraine, and the state shall ensure the comprehensive development and functioning of the Ukrainian language in all spheres of social life throughout the entire territory of the country. Some minority languages (such as Russian and Belarusian) have significantly less protection, and have restrictions on th... ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/685 "2014-03-05T23:24:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yup, who would know the facts better than a visiting Estonian minister, who clearly got the straight goods from … someone he talked to. > > I wonder how this doctor came to know it. But then, doctors know a lot of things. Doctors definitely know stuff that is hidden from others. Did you check out the video? I mean, if you weren’t convinced before by the unimpeachable leaked phone call where Estonia’s foreign affairs minister talked to a doctor and got the skinny, that video will definitely put this whole thing over the top! Was a great catch by Red. I’m smelling conspiracy! Er, no…sorry, that was something I stepped in. Still, very convincing. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/686 "2014-03-05T23:34:12Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Doctors definitely know stuff that is hidden from others. Did you check out the video? I mean, if you weren’t convinced before by the unimpeachable leaked phone call where Estonia’s foreign affairs minister talked to a doctor and got the skinny, that video will definitely put this whole thing over the top! Was a great catch by Red. > > I’m smelling conspiracy! Er, no…sorry, that was something I stepped in. Still, very convincing. Hilarious. The doctor in question: > [@](#): > > **Olga Bogomolets said she had not told Mr Paet that policemen and protesters had been killed in the same manner.** > > “Myself I saw only protesters. I do not know the type of wounds suffered by military people,” she told The Telegraph. “I have no access to those people.” > > But she said she had asked for a full forensic criminal investigation into the deaths that occurred in the Maidan. "No one who just sees the wounds when treating the victims can make a determination about the type of weapons. I hope international experts and Ukrainian investigators will make a determination of what type of weapons, who was involved in the killings and how it was done. I have no data to prove anything. > > "I was a doctor helping to save people on the square. There were 15 people killed on the first day by snipers. They were shot directly to the heart, brain and arteries. There were more than 40 the next day, 12 of them died in my arms. > > “Our nation has to ask the question who were the killers, who asked them to come to Ukraine. We need good answers on the basis of expertise.” > > \*\*Mr Paet’s assertion that an opposition figure was behind the Maidan massacre was not one she could share. \*\* > > “I think you can only say something like this on the basis of fact,” she said. “Its not correct and its not good to do this. It should be based on fact.” > > She said the new government in Kiev had assured her a criminal investigation had begun but that she had not direct contact with it so far. > > “They told me they have begun a criminal process and if they say that I believe them. The police have not given me any information on it.” [Emphasis added] [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10677370/Ukraine-Russia-crisis-live.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10677370/Ukraine-Russia-crisis-live.html) So, **Redfury** , does this change your mind? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/687 "2014-03-06T00:00:26Z")
How embarrasing for Mr. Urmas Paet, caught out spreading a bald-faced lie to support the Russians … and how ironic that it was apparently Russian bugging of diplomatic phones that exposed his lie for the whole world to see. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/688 "2014-03-06T01:25:49Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You know, that point was addressed upthread. It was apparently a move to rescind regional “official languages” - the move passed by the barest of margins and then was vetoed by the interim President. So clearly the fascist nationalists aren’t having a free hand. > > [Language policy in Ukraine - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine#Proposals_for_repeal_and_revision) I know it was vetoed, but I was pointing out their immediate priorities. Instead of trying to heal the country and mend fences, perhaps work towards solving the dire economical situation, they quickly started inflaming the situation. > [@Malthus](#): > > I must be missing something. Where’s the thuggery in that vid? That these guys look scary? Well, I’ll admit that I don’t understand what exactly is being said, so I could be completely mistaken in my interpretation. But from partial translations I’ve read, the Right Sector guys are interfering in the city council meeting, wielding sledgehammers and clubs. Some woman mentioning that the people voted for the officials, not for the people interfering. And talk about having forced some Party of Regions members to resign. I would be happy to get a more complete translation from somebody understanding Ukrainian. You can find other videos of them attending city council meetings or prosecutor offices and making threats. For example, google Sashko Biliy. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/689 "2014-03-06T03:13:27Z")
Just to show how stupid it is to even attempt to believe Putin et al when they say that the military forces with no identification on their uniforms are not Russian army: [http://www.newtimes.ru/articles/detail/79932](http://www.newtimes.ru/articles/detail/79932) Photographs of the trucks being used by the “self-defense” troops - those trucks are new, are only used by the Russian military and have Russian military license plates identifying the military area (North Caucusus) from where they came. In another picture the same type of truck (Tigr) is shown with an emblem of a Russian guards division on the door. They forgot to paint it over I guess. The guns that these supposed “self-defense” troops are using have sniper scopes (again, in pictures) that are not sold to anyone and are only used by Russian special forces. Other “self-defense” soldiers are photographed carrying AK 101-105 - up until very recently produced only for the Russian military. Recently licenses were sold to Venezuela, India and Indonesia - I am sure those who swallowed Russian propaganda whole will think that that’s where those guns came from. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/690 "2014-03-06T03:17:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Just to show how stupid it is to even attempt to believe Putin et al when they say that the military forces with no identification on their uniforms are not Russian army: > > [The New Times](http://www.newtimes.ru/articles/detail/79932) > > Photographs of the trucks being used by the “self-defense” troops - those trucks are new, are only used by the Russian military and have Russian military license plates identifying the military area (North Caucusus) from where they came. > > In another picture the same type of truck (Tigr) is shown with an emblem of a Russian guards division on the door. They forgot to paint it over I guess. > > The guns that these supposed “self-defense” troops are using have sniper scopes (again, in pictures) that are not sold to anyone and are only used by Russian special forces. > > Other “self-defense” soldiers are photographed carrying AK 101-105 - up until very recently produced only for the Russian military. Recently licenses were sold to Venezuela, India and Indonesia - I am sure those who swallowed Russian propaganda whole will think that that’s where those guns came from. If the Russian Federation can have 25,000 troops on the Crimean Peninsula are they allowed to have ‘trucks’? Can they loan those trucks to Crimean Independence militia members? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/691 "2014-03-06T03:21:59Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If the Russian Federation can have 25,000 troops on the Crimean Peninsula are they allowed to have ‘trucks’? Can they loan those trucks to Crimean Independence militia members? Yes of course. Russian interior accents, uniforms, weapons, equipment and training all thrown together overnight by local militia’s no one’s ever seen or heard of before. Totally believable. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/692 "2014-03-06T04:08:21Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If the Russian Federation can have 25,000 troops on the Crimean Peninsula are they allowed to have ‘trucks’? Can they loan those trucks to Crimean Independence militia members? What do you figure? You think that anyone in the planet would sign a treaty that said you were allowed to supply separartist mlitias? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/693 "2014-03-06T04:20:45Z")
> [@](#): > > (-aldiboronti 02-28-2014 04:58 PM) The sad thing is that America and the West don’t even have any high moral ground left from which to chide Russia for its interference in the affairs of a sovereign nation. Russia is simply following the path laid down by the West over the last few decades. \<“Cite” > > > [@](#): > > > > (-NotfooledbyW 03-01-2014 09:49 AM) And Russia is following a path much less egregious and more restrained than the blitzkrieg path from Kuwait to Baghdad taken by the UK and US in March 2003. > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > RickJay 03-01-2014 10:02 AM You (NotfooledbyW) aren’t keeping up with current events. Putin is now openly asking his parliament to approve of war. War of conquest, might I add. The objective here is to absorb parts of Ukraine into Russia. > > > > > > Make no mistake; Putin is a dangerous, dangerous man. Any doubt is now removed; he is manufacturing crises to justify war and territorial expansion. This is the worst threat to international peace in a long, long time. Are you saying that Putin ‘manufactured’ this crisis in Kiev? When our government (USA) learns how to ‘invade’ a country without killing people and destroying things, I might get be persuaded that Putin is dangerous because of other things he is doing but not what I’ve seen in Crimea thus far. His support of Assad is dangerous to millions and deadly and sickening. However the fact is, that Putin acted less dangerously on Syria last Fall to pressure Assad to get rid of CW from that war zone. Lest we all forget, Putin reversed his dangerous position on the CW threat in response to not wanting his puppet regime there to be bombed, even a limited bombing for a couple of days. Putin did not recently, suddenly and dangerously make a land ‘grab’ in Syria. That situation goes back to the Soviet era. Putin is no saint or great small D democrat by any means, but Putin has contributed to resolving the Iran Nuclear issue peacefully. Does it make him a Jimmy Carter type leader overall. No not at all. But the facts are, there has been no ‘threat’ of ‘regime change’ in Kiev coming from Putin’s orders to move troops beyond the bases in Crimea. Having observed the ‘restraint’ shown from both sides in Crimea, to me calling Putin dangerous for this incursion appears to me much more based upon bias and knee-jerk reaction than a serious desire to understand what is going on. Perhaps you have a firm way of knowing that, Putin _“is manufacturing crises to justify war and territorial expansion”_ but I am near considering that you do. To specifically ‘justify war’. That tells a lot that you threw that phrase in there. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/694 "2014-03-06T04:41:34Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What do you figure? You think that anyone in the planet would sign a treaty that said you were allowed to supply separartist mlitias? When signing a deal to save $100 million a year in debt forgiveness that allows 25,000 heavily armed foreign troops on your soil of the world’s second military superpower … I doubt you’d be thinking about the ‘technicality’ if that is what it is… about loaning trucks to separatists… following a constitutional crisis when the President and commander of the armed forces has just been removed from office by rioters throwing Molotov cocktails at government forces… I’d say a good number of the para military types operating in Crimea off of bases are Ukrainian and are pro-Russia and pro-Separatists. I’ll accept there some Russian Special Forces mixed in. The point is that going around saying the Russian Troops are occupying Crimea’s legislature and government buildings is not substituted as fact or that it is against the will of the people of Crimea. I have heard the only fatalities thus far in Crimea were Russian Speaking shot at the legislature building’s during some confrontation with Tatars. That was early on before the secretive buildup of Russian Troops made their presence known. Another aspect would be from Putin’s point of view believing that taking control of missile batteries and anti aircraft installations fits into protecting Russian assets such as their ships at the base. There are a lot of extraordinary circumstances and realities surrounding this whole ‘invasion’. I never expected that the Russian’s could so efficiently and methodically take control or assist pro-Russian locals to take control of that entire peninsula without some real serious resistance. But I don’t feel so bad, because our CIA also thought they couldn’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/695 "2014-03-06T04:43:20Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Yes of course. Russian interior accents, uniforms, weapons, equipment and training all thrown together overnight by local militia’s no one’s ever seen or heard of before. Totally believable. It reminds me of the jokes in Soviet Union from the late 60s during the Russian-Chinese conflict parodying some pathetically bad Russian propaganda. IIRC, it went something like this: “Yesterday, cowardly Chinese traitors opened machine gun fire on a peaceful Soviet tractor, peacefully working in the field next to the Russian-Chinese border. In response, the Soviet tractor turned its turret 180 degrees and with one precision shell wiped out the machine gun nest and and all its crew. There were no Russian casualties”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/696 "2014-03-06T05:49:04Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I’d say a good number of the para military types operating in Crimea off of bases are Ukrainian and are pro-Russia and pro-Separatists. I’ll accept there some Russian Special Forces mixed in. You’d say? YOU’D SAY??? Based on what, exactly? We’re not interested in what you would guess about a region that you know next to nothing about. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/697 "2014-03-06T10:29:42Z")
BREAKING: Crimean Parliament votes overwhelmingly to join Russia ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/698 "2014-03-06T10:42:31Z")
BREAKING Crimea to hold national referendum on whether to join Russia in 10 days time says Crimean Parliament ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/699 "2014-03-06T11:06:59Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > BREAKING: > > Crimean Parliament votes overwhelmingly to join Russia Quelle Surprise, said absolutely no-one… ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/700 "2014-03-06T11:12:29Z")
Crimea referendum asking people if they want to join Russian Federation will be March 16th [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=36)