# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/741 "2014-03-06T18:15:40Z")
The leader of the pro-Russian protests in Donetsk has been dragged off by the authorities. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/742 "2014-03-06T18:15:50Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > According to the only information we have, the “usurpers” have in fact launched an investigation - again, I refer you to the statement by the Doc. > > I imagine that they have a few other things on their mind right now, like having their country eaten alive by Russia while its economy tanks, so I’m not exactly expecting swift results. Don’t they realize that this whole debate thread hangs in the balance??? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/743 "2014-03-06T18:56:18Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Evasive at best. Evasive…as in, not bothering to deal with a reply by simply calling it evasive, at best and handwaving it away (after having to have it pointed out to you that, in fact, he HAD answered the question that you said he was avoiding)? I mean, really…you can’t buy comedy this good. You understand that the irony of this statement is so far off the scale that we’ll need an entirely new calibration protocol, right? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/744 "2014-03-06T18:57:03Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > A referendum ratified by the local Parliament, a _referendum_; someone call USAID quickly, they need to throw a couple $billion somewhere to stop this nonsense. Breaking: Ukraine PM rejects referendum on Crimea split > **[Ukraine PM: Crimea ‘was, is and will be an integral part of Ukraine’ | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2014/03/06/world/europe/ukraine-russia-tensions/index.html)** > > A Crimean parliament decision to hold a referendum on separation from Ukraine is an “illegitimate decision,” Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said. And Obama just made a statement saying said referendum would “break international law” Comedy gold. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/745 "2014-03-06T18:58:16Z")
Anyone care to speculate _how_ the doctor might possibly know that the same group shot both police and protestors? If rifles of similar caliber were used, the entry and exit wounds would be of generally equal size, and if she fished out some bullets and measured them (and if they hadn’t deformed or fragmented too much), she might be able to conclude that they were the same cartridge, e.g. the 7.62x39 or 5.45x39. But, matching them to the same rifles would require a sophisticated forensic examination of the striations on the bullets. Matching the bullets as being from the same production lot would require a sophisticated analysis of their content, such as a spectrometer reading. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/746 "2014-03-06T18:59:26Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Anyone care to speculate _how_ the doctor might possibly know that the same group shot both police and protestors? If the rifles of similar caliber were used, the entry and exit wounds would be of generally equal size, and if she fished out some bullets and measured them (and if they hadn’t deformed or fragmented too much), she might be able to conclude that they were the same cartridge, e.g. the 7.62x39 or 5.45x39. But, matching them to the same rifles would require a sophisticated forensic examination of the striations on the bullets. Matching the bullets as being from the same production lot would require a sophisticated analysis of their content, such as a spectrometer reading. Simple…doctors know stuff. Unless they are lying…in which case they are obviously US puppets. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/747 "2014-03-06T19:02:46Z")
Forget the doctor. Basically just one opinion, who kniows what the guy is about. > [@RedFury](#): > > And Obama just made a statement saying said referendum would “break international law” > > Comedy gold. Beautiful; he and Kerry are becoming a great double act. #trythechicken ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/748 "2014-03-06T19:04:39Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Breaking: Ukraine PM rejects referendum on Crimea split > [http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/06/world/europe/ukraine-russia-tensions/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/06/world/europe/ukraine-russia-tensions/index.html) > > And Obama just made a statement saying said referendum would “break international law” > > Comedy gold. Do you have a cite for that statement? What I’m reading [here](http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/06/world/europe/ukraine-russia-tensions/index.html?hpt=hp_t1) on CNN says: > [@](#): > > – President Barack Obama said on Thursday that a proposed referendum for Crimea to join Russia would violate the Ukrainian constitution and international law. > > “Any discussion about the future of Ukraine must include … the government of Ukraine,” he said. Which, unless I’m mistaken, DOES currently violate the Ukrainian constitution (sort of like if Catalan decided arbitrarily and all on it’s own to secede from Spain, say), and…well, no idea what ‘international law’ even is, in reality, so that could be whatever you want to make it I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/749 "2014-03-06T19:40:32Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Anyone care to speculate _how_ the doctor might possibly know that the same group shot both police and protestors? If rifles of similar caliber were used, the entry and exit wounds would be of generally equal size, and if she fished out some bullets and measured them (and if they hadn’t deformed or fragmented too much), she might be able to conclude that they were the same cartridge, e.g. the 7.62x39 or 5.45x39. But, matching them to the same rifles would require a sophisticated forensic examination of the striations on the bullets. Matching the bullets as being from the same production lot would require a sophisticated analysis of their content, such as a spectrometer reading. Well, yes, it is inherently absurd, as the doctor herself pointed out: a doctor just examining the wounds of victims simply isn’t in a position to do a police-style forensic investigation. None of which has stopped the bizzare and debunked claim from being plastered all over the Internet, even repeated by otherwise reputable news sites. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/750 "2014-03-06T19:42:24Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > None of which has stopped the bizzare and debunked claim from being plastered all over the Internet, even repeated by otherwise reputable news sites. Useful idiots. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/751 "2014-03-06T23:24:09Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m not blaming the victim; I’m mocking your argument that the answer to the minority issues in Ukraine is immediate invasion by a foreign power. It is not a minority issue in Crimea. If you have another answer for separation from Crimea than Russia protecting them to have a vote, lets hear it. How can you mock the only answer available to the people of Crimea. There is no pursuit of regime change in Ukraine by the Russians. The issues is separation of Crimea as determined by majority rule without a violent civil war. The Ukrainians in Kiev chose to overturn an election Crimeans certainly voted in. by violence and no respect for law and order. The rioters in Kiev got their answer through violence. I see no reason Crimeans owe the hooligans in Kiev respect fir the rule of law set upon them by Krucshov without a referendum. The referendum is coming soon. Your answer is to force Crimeans to live with Krucshov’s decision for all eternity. Who are you to the people of Crimea to mock their answer? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/752 "2014-03-06T23:56:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Useful idiots. If you had told me two weeks ago that I would agree with you on something, I’d have called for the men in white coats to usher you to a comfortable room. There seem to be an awful lot of useful idiots willing to crawl into Puty-put’s lap and cuddle up to Daddy. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/753 "2014-03-06T23:58:33Z")
When did the people of Crimea suddenly need “an answer”? What was the desperation here? Was Crimea suddenly beset by rampaging hordes of Kiev-based looters? And why did this sudden desire for secession only arise when Russian troops arrived in force? Crimea is no more entitled to unilaterally separate from Ukraine than, say, South Carolina is entitled to unilaterally separate from the United States. For a guy who claims to be a great genius at avoiding the propaganda of the Western media, you’re remarkably easily fooled by one of the most ludicrously transparent _maskirovka_ campaigns in modern history. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/754 "2014-03-07T00:01:19Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Which, unless I’m mistaken, DOES currently violate the Ukrainian constitution (sort of like if Catalan decided arbitrarily and all on it’s own to secede from Spain, say), A better analogy would be if the Basque region was suddenly occupied by the French army, and then suddenly a referendum on secession was announced. One wonders what RedFury would think of that little trick. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/755 "2014-03-07T00:41:15Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Crimea is no more entitled to unilaterally separate from Ukraine than, say, South Carolina is entitled to unilaterally separate from the United States. South Carolina joined the Union voluntarily - the people of Crimea were assigned to Ukraine by a dictator They had no say. So do you think South Carolina became a state without a choice to do so? Had the Confederacy won the Great Civil war after South Carolina would certainly have been entitled to separate from the Union because they would have. Bad analogy. Why do you keep using words like ‘entitled’… if they do separate… they do… How long do you think the handwringing will go on seeing as how they certainly might be better off for their decision. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/756 "2014-03-07T00:43:19Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Why do you keep using words like ‘entitled’… if they do separate… they do… How long do you think the handwringing will go on seeing as how they certainly might be better off for their decision. They “certainly might be” better off? And that gets the weasel word award of the week! What exactly does that mean? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/757 "2014-03-07T00:45:31Z")
[**35 Countries Where the U.S. Has Supported Fascists, Drug Lords and Terrorists**](http://www.alternet.org/world/35-countries-where-us-has-supported-fascists-druglords-and-terrorists?akid=11570.44541.DMoSeo&rd=1&src=newsletter966557&t=12&paging=off¤t_page=1#bookmark) Methinks the US should be counseling the Russians on how to get The Crimea and get away scot-free seeing their vast experience on the matter. All the rest is bloviation of the highest order who no-one takes seriously outside of the USA! USA! indoctrinated crowd – of which, fortunately, there seem to be less and less. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/758 "2014-03-07T00:45:45Z")
Well, I just think Russian Crimeans milling around pissing about being an oppressed minority while the Tatars are standing right there saying “what?” is a bit hard to swallow. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/759 "2014-03-07T00:50:02Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > If you had told me two weeks ago that I would agree with you on something, I’d have called for the men in white coats to usher you to a comfortable room. > > There seem to be an awful lot of useful idiots willing to crawl into Puty-put’s lap and cuddle up to Daddy. Do I hear echos of “Saddam Lover” to those opposed to deposing the tyrant by military force? ---
**Author:** ![Shearer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/57b2e6/32.png) [@Shearer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shearer)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/760 "2014-03-07T00:53:56Z")
I can’t imagine the US would react any differently if a country on their borders, with US citizens living there, was subject to a fairly violent change of power. The last time it happened the US annexed Texas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=39)