# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/841 "2014-03-07T18:38:14Z")
Talking about “having/growing a spine” is talking about cowardice, imho. ymmv. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/842 "2014-03-07T18:39:55Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Talking about “having/growing a spine” is talking about cowardice, imho. ymmv. My mileage does vary, quite obviously and nearly across the board, from yours, so you might want to keep that in mind when making assertions on my behalf in the future. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/843 "2014-03-07T18:42:12Z")
Yeah, I’m sure there is lots of disagreement on what “they need to grow a spine” means. Humble apologies for misrepresenting you. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/844 "2014-03-07T18:44:02Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yeah, I’m sure there is lots of disagreement on what “they need to grow a spine” means. Humble apologies for misrepresenting you. Glad we cleared that up then. Moving along… ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/845 "2014-03-07T19:33:47Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Tough shit. The land grab is over, with zero bloodshed and I doubt many people are going to be worse off. Maybe the Russians were egging on fractioning in the Ukraine, but the Ukrainians fell for it. The mob led “impeachment” gave the Russians the excuse they needed and the Russians were ready to take advantage. There is no proof that this is the end of the matter, and Russia has … issues … with pretty well all of its neighbours. If Putin gets his way now, without significant cost, what is to stop him from (1) taking more (or maybe all) of Ukraine, and/or (2) helping himself to slices of territory elsewhere? > [@](#): > > Yeah, and those were stupid moves. No need to repeat it. This game is over. If the EU is willing to take the hit in a sanction battle with Russia to try and undo it, well good luck to them. Several former “basket cases” are in fact doing pretty well - like Poland. Would they really have been better off under Putin’s Russia? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/846 "2014-03-07T19:43:36Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There is no proof that this is the end of the matter, and Russia has … issues … with pretty well all of its neighbours. If Putin gets his way now, without significant cost, what is to stop him from (1) taking more (or maybe all) of Ukraine, and/or (2) helping himself to slices of territory elsewhere? Well, then that should be the focus of any efforts. Shoring up other territories. Of course, many say our previous “shoring up” of border areas is what made Russia nervous and anxious to exert influence. > [@](#): > > Several former “basket cases” are in fact doing pretty well - like Poland. Would they really have been better off under Putin’s Russia? Probably not but Crimea just traded one kleptocracy for another. And we are in a different situation now. The EU can’t take in another delinquent for the foreseeable future. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/847 "2014-03-07T19:54:05Z")
Thread’s gone too bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/848 "2014-03-07T20:07:59Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Thread’s gone too bizarre. 😛 It wasn’t bizarre before when we were talking about all manner of CT…NOW it’s jumped the shark, ehe? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/849 "2014-03-07T20:11:20Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Russia is using the excuse of supposed ethnic troubles to basically do a land grab…and you all are basically just talking about how bad the US has been in the past, when you aren’t bringing up loopy conspiracy theories. I’m truly mystified by the pro-Russian response in this thread and willingness to buy what Putin is trying to peddle with such little probing skepticism from some of our members. Ok, I get Red…but some of the rest of you? I know you dislike the US and everything we do, but good grief, the US has little or nothing to do with this, and I’d think you could look at the situation from the perspective of a European having this happen in your relative backyard. Do you REALLY think it’s a good idea that Russia is doing what it’s doing? Seriously? I have not argued it is a good idea what Putin is doing. I think it was the correct move for Putin when the president of Ukraine was overthrown that he thinks will brings the whole shitstorm that the Ukraine’s cyclic upheaval and tug of war between west and east and NATO and missile defense dreams for leftover Reagan disciples to an end. I think that intended message has been received loud and clear. So lets cut the Putin-Lover stuff and and writing the story that this is a land grab being justified to protect Russians in Ukraine from fascists. The fascists element in all this is not much more than opportunistic stirring up the troops, the Russian domestic support, and the Russian Speakers in Ukraine because he needs them. Russian cooperation with the US on Afghanistan, Syria CW, and Iran Nukes and on the war on terror weighs in for me, and I don’t see the Ukraine’s loss of somewhat autonomous Crimea to pre-1954 borders as a strategic loss or concern for the USA. Does that make this America lover a Pro-Russian and obsessed with the evils of America type? I hope not. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/850 "2014-03-07T20:11:36Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Thread’s gone too bizarre. In what way? After all this talk of fascist coups and conspiracy, what the heck is so bizarre about the last few posts? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/851 "2014-03-07T20:14:05Z")
> [@XT](#): > > 😛 It wasn’t bizarre before when we were talking about all manner of CT…NOW it’s jumped the shark, ehe? 😛 and it’s oh so serious stuff to theorise about Russian conspiracies, ehe? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/852 "2014-03-07T20:17:16Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I have not argued it is a good idea what Putin is doing. I think it was the correct move for Putin when the president of Ukraine was overthrown that he thinks will brings the whole shitstorm that the Ukraine’s cyclic upheaval and tug of war between west and east and NATO and missile defense dreams for leftover Reagan disciples to an end. > > I think that intended message has been received loud and clear. > > So lets cut the Putin-Lover stuff and and writing the story that this is a land grab being justified to protect Russians in Ukraine from fascists. The fascists element in all this is not much more than opportunistic stirring up the troops, the Russian domestic support, and the Russian Speakers in Ukraine because he needs them. > > Russian cooperation with the US on Afghanistan, Syria CW, and Iran Nukes and on the war on terror weighs in for me, and I don’t see the Ukraine’s loss of somewhat autonomous Crimea to pre-1954 borders as a strategic loss or concern for the USA. > > Does that make this America lover a Pro-Russian and obsessed with the evils of America type? I hope not. I wasn’t really talking to you, NFBW because, well, there is no point in engaging you on any subject. Have a nice day though. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/853 "2014-03-07T20:20:51Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > 😛 and it’s oh so serious stuff to theorise about Russian conspiracies, ehe? Well, it’s a touch more grounded in reality. 😛 At any rate, thought I’d link to [this](http://news.yahoo.com/china-russia-youre-putting-us-tight-spot-141707148.html)…China’s take on all of this: > [@](#): > > China to Russia: You’re putting us in a tight spot > China’s instinct is to stand by its strategic partner, but Russia’s intervention in Ukraine’s Crimea appears to violate China’s principle of strict state sovereignty. > [@](#): > > As they plot Beijing’s course through the international uproar over Russia’s intervention in Ukraine, they are torn between conflicting instincts. > > On the one hand is a strong reluctance to stand with the West against Moscow – a strategic partner which never openly criticizes China. But on the other is the cardinal principle of Chinese foreign policy – non-interference in the internal affairs of other countries. > [@](#): > > “China is uneasy,” says Bonnie Glaser, an Asia specialist at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. “They cannot endorse Russia’s actions but they don’t want more tensions with Moscow, so they are not emphasizing their differences.” > > It is easy to see why China is so insistent on the principle of non-interference: the government is worried about foreigners meddling in China’s own border provinces, such as Tibet and Xinjiang, where Beijing is unsure of local peoples’ loyalties. > > Chinese leaders are especially displeased by the referendum that the Crimean parliament has called for March 16 to choose whether the autonomous region should break away from Ukraine and join Russia. And, another analogy: > [@](#): > > “That would be like Taiwan’s destiny being decided only by Taiwanese,” says Jin Canrong, a professor of international studies at Renmin University in Beijing. That would be anathema to Beijing, which insists that Taiwan – a self-governing island – is an integral part of China. > > “China insists that Crimea’s fate should be decided by all Ukrainians,” explains Prof. Jin. “We will not support a Russian occupation of Crimea.” > > “China’s foremost priorities, the first things they think about when it comes to interference, are Tibet, Xinjiang, and Taiwan,” adds Ms. Glaser. “The idea of a part of China deciding whether it wanted to be separate is seen as very dangerous.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/854 "2014-03-07T20:21:17Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well, then that should be the focus of any efforts. Shoring up other territories. Of course, many say our previous “shoring up” of border areas is what made Russia nervous and anxious to exert influence. The problem is that Putin is getting the message he can take what he likes and no-one will do squat. Why would he take seriously any “shoring up” of other terrories? > [@](#): > > Probably not but Crimea just traded one kleptocracy for another. And we are in a different situation now. The EU can’t take in another delinquent for the foreseeable future. It is too early to tell if this latest Ukrainian government is going to be a “kleptocracy”. It will certainly be an economic basket case, granted. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/855 "2014-03-07T20:23:34Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I wasn’t really talking to you, NFBW because, well, there is no point in engaging you on any subject. Have a nice day though. It is funny though. “It is not a good idea, but it is the correct move.”. I wonder if NFBW is [Viktor Chernomyrdin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Chernomyrdin#Sayings) that came back to life and learned English. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/856 "2014-03-07T20:24:02Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] The problem is that Putin is getting the message he can take what he likes and no-one will do squat. Why would he take seriously any “shoring up” of other terrories? [/QUOTE] Especially when you consider promises made to the Ukraine to guarantee it’s sovereignty in exchange for it’s nuclear weapons. Basically, why should anyone else believe any sort of promise from the West if Russia is allowed to do what it wants here and gets away with it with, to paraphrase an earlier poster, a shrug and a wave and best wishes that it turns out ok? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/857 "2014-03-07T20:24:56Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > 😛 and it’s oh so serious stuff to theorise about Russian conspiracies, ehe? Yeah, who would believe a Russian conspiracy to take over Crimea with “self-defence forces” that Russia claims are not Russian soldiers, but just some guys (well, a few thousand guys) who bought Russian army uniforms at a surplus store? That’s just crazy talk. It would never happen in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/858 "2014-03-07T20:26:26Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Especially when you consider promises made to the Ukraine to guarantee it’s sovereignty in exchange for it’s nuclear weapons. Basically, why should anyone else believe any sort of promise from the West if Russia is allowed to do what it wants here and gets away with it with, to paraphrase an earlier poster, a shrug and a wave and best wishes that it turns out ok? This is doing the cause of nuclear non-proliferation tons of good. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/859 "2014-03-07T20:28:19Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This is doing the cause of nuclear non-proliferation tons of good. Yeah, right? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/860 "2014-03-07T20:46:32Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I wasn’t really talking to you, NFBW because, well, there is no point in engaging you on any subject. Have a nice day though. Thanks for admitting that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=44)