# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/881 "2014-03-08T00:35:39Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yeah, who would believe a Russian conspiracy to take over Crimea with “self-defence forces” that Russia claims are not Russian soldiers, but just some guys (well, a few thousand guys) who bought Russian army uniforms at a surplus store? That’s just crazy talk. It would never happen in the real world. And drive vehicles with Russian military license plates, and with Russian military unit insigniae badly painted over, and carry weapons only issued to Russian troops. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/882 "2014-03-08T01:19:40Z")
Malthus’ posts a link: (Putin’s Press Conference Proved Merkel Right: He’s Lost His Mind > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Malthus (Post 17161862) This does not bode well. > > [http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...ess-conference](http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...ess-conference) > > Anyone see this press conference? > > > [@](#): > > > > (-XT 03-04-2014 12:11 PM) Yeah, that’s pretty freaking scary. Probably all part of a US plot though, based on many of the posts in this thread. \<“Cite” Being scared XT joins the conversation by assigning a CT to posters that did not post them. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Malthus (Post 17163027) Yes, it is amazing how those folks in Ukraine, who are of course nothing but a bunch of fascists, have risked their lives for no better reason that to help the US sell the country to that paragon of oppression - the EU. Clearly they do not know what is good for themselves, and must be gently corrected by the loving hand of their Russian brothers. \<“Cite” > > > [@](#): > > > > (-XT 03-04-2014 04:50 PM) Who are merely being playful in sending in troops, warships, helicopters and other gentle instruments of correction (while the US, who ‘obviously’ orchestrated this whole thing seems to be in stunned WTF mode…a ploy no doubt). No, this isn’t a land grab by the Russians…perish the thought. It’s obviously a land grab by the US to bring the Ukraine kicking and screaming into the EU! I guess because the EU is full of fascists and racists…or something. \<“Cite” > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > (-Malthus 03-04-2014 05:10 PM) Neo-liberals. They are worse that fascists and racists put together. We see lot’s of narrative from this pair. They are making the argumenta for others and knocking them down. Knocking down ‘land grab’ CT’s by submitting land grab CT’s of their own. We don’t see much in direct quotes of who is actually saying all those crazy, neo-liberal things. And XT plunders on: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Mr Quatro (Post 17163264) Both super powers have studied all of the options and moves of the other side in the Ukrainian take over bid with Putin now saying your move Obama: [http://news.yahoo.com/russia-test-la...194905394.html](http://news.yahoo.com/russia-test-la...194905394.html) \<“Cite” > > > [@](#): > > > > (-XT 03-04-2014 05:56 PM) Wow, what a strange coincidence! :dubious: And the US, who are at the heart of all of this, we countered with…um…something about Obamacare I think. I’d have to check the headlines, but pretty sure we had this Obamacare bomb ready for this event, so we could trump this obvious last minute panicked response from Putin and Russia, who were obviously caught unawares by this blatant US attempted takeover (for the EU). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/883 "2014-03-08T01:32:56Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**US a full partner in Ukraine debacle**](http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/columns/2014/03/03/cold-war-over-russia-isn-zero-sum/Df9VSHeJFpKUz3tRKDjUXJ/story.html) I’m not buying this guy’s analysis. Firstly, I don’t think the US was pulling former Warsaw Pact members and former USSR “Republics” into NATO. Those guys asked to join, and not surprisingly so after living for years under the USSR’s domination. What were we supposed to say: No, you’re too close geographically to Russia, tough cookies! Had Russia been a better neighbor, maybe those countries wouldn’t feel the need to seek allies in Western Europe and the US. Secondly, he implies that US “operatives” were somehow a critical factor in the events leading up to the ouster of Yanukovych, but offers no actual evidence let alone proof. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/884 "2014-03-08T01:42:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not buying this guy’s analysis. Don’t you know we’re the eye behind every spycam, the hand behind every coup? We’re the Darth Vader of the world and everything that happens that someone considers bad is our fault? I’m seriously amazed at the sheer number of people who are willing to jump into Putin’s lap and cuddle up to Daddy over this thing. I may be a lefty, but I never trusted the USSR and I never trusted its successor, Russia, and I CERTAINLY don’t trust Putin. And Yanukovich appears to have been something of an uberkleptocrat and an ultracorrupt politician and I don’t understand the sympathy he’s garnering over his ouster. It’s like yet another symptom of both the extreme right and the extreme left simply losing their everloving shit. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/885 "2014-03-08T01:58:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not buying this guy’s analysis. > > Firstly, I don’t think the US was pulling former Warsaw Pact members and former USSR “Republics” into NATO. Those guys asked to join, and not surprisingly so after living for years under the USSR’s domination. What were we supposed to say: No, you’re too close geographically to Russia, tough cookies! Had Russia been a better neighbor, maybe those countries wouldn’t feel the need to seek allies in Western Europe and the US. > > Secondly, he implies that US “operatives” were somehow a critical factor in the events leading up to the ouster of Yanukovych, but offers no actual evidence let alone proof. On my iPhone so it’s a pain to link. Go back a page or two and you’ll find a fully sourced post of mine where detail are given to the ‘salaries’ paid to many of the protesters. Of course you may continue to disregard your lying eyes. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/886 "2014-03-08T02:11:26Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Thank you, Captain Obvious. To you, sure. But I notice none of us are having much luck convincing the more reticent posters in this thread of just how deeply involved the US was in the events leading up to the putsch. Nor is that likely to change. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/887 "2014-03-08T02:15:17Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > To you, sure. But I notice none of us are having much luck convincing the more reticent posters in this thread of just how deeply involved the US was in the events leading up to the putsch. > > Nor is that likely to change. Who gives a fuck if the US meddles? We’ve learned a few lessons of our own. Hey, how about you don’t totally fuck over your minority groups? That makes us the bad guy? ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/888 "2014-03-08T02:26:15Z")
The text for the Crimean referendum has been released… [and it’s impossible to vote no](http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/two-choices-in-crimean-referendum-yes-and-yes-338745.html). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/889 "2014-03-08T02:50:17Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > The text for the Crimean referendum has been released… [and it’s impossible to vote no](http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/two-choices-in-crimean-referendum-yes-and-yes-338745.html). Ok, if this report is accurate(and that’s a big “if”) and not propaganda then the vote is a complete farce. I was also wondering about this part. > [@](#): > > Mykhailo Malyshev, head of the Crimean parliament’s commission on referendum, said the election will have 1,250 polling stations equipped with web cameras for the vote. > > “We have a desire and preparations for installing web cameras at polling stations. They can play a great role during the vote, and if technically it is possible, the web cameras will be installed,” UNIAN news agency quoted him as saying. Ok, so does that mean people are going to be under the impressing they’re being videotaped while they vote? Good Lord, I’m reminded of the elections under the Assads where people a different colored piece of dye painted on their fingers after they vote to indicate who they voted for while Ba’ath Party officials watch over the proceeding and if the wrong colored dye is applied ask the people if they’re sure they made the correct vote. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/890 "2014-03-08T13:06:56Z")
Ukraine dictated the suspension of Crimea’s independence and Constitution in 1992. Going back to their desired post Soviet breakup status clearly puts the West’s arguments in a bind. The Ukraine government suspended Crimea’s Constitution in 1992 right after Crimea passed it. The referendum from the link posted: > [@](#): > > Do you support joining Crimea with the Russian Federation as a subject of Russian Federation? > > And: > > Do you support restoration of 1992 Crimean Constitution and Crimea’s status as a part of Ukraine? > > That Constitution declares that Crimea is an independent state. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/891 "2014-03-08T13:23:18Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I expect a full on NATO “exercise” would be organized and running in Estonia before any Russian backing made any difference. Maybe those poor spineless Europeans will drag their heels but it’d get done. How, exactly, would a NATO “exercise” prevent an indigenous minority from rebelling? Would NATO troops offer to threaten such rebels? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/892 "2014-03-08T13:32:24Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**US a full partner in Ukraine debacle**](http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/columns/2014/03/03/cold-war-over-russia-isn-zero-sum/Df9VSHeJFpKUz3tRKDjUXJ/story.html) I note the article makes many assertions of Western meddling and offers exactly no proof of same. The notion that the expansion of NATO was driven entirely by Western animus against Russia, and not by the fears of the countries at issue _of_ Russia, is patently absurd - particularly right now, when the leaders of Latvia and Estonia are, quite literally, thanking their stars that they have NATO membership (because guess what? They have lots of ethnic Russians, too!) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/893 "2014-03-08T13:46:25Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > How, exactly, would a NATO “exercise” prevent an indigenous minority from rebelling? Would NATO troops offer to threaten such rebels? The local government would deal with the rebellion, the exercise would prevent Russian troops from interfering. You know, the point is to stop Russian expansion. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/894 "2014-03-08T14:39:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I note the article makes many assertions of Western meddling and offers exactly no proof of same. > > The notion that the expansion of NATO was driven entirely by Western animus against Russia, and not by the fears of the countries at issue _of_ Russia, is patently absurd - particularly right now, when the leaders of Latvia and Estonia are, quite literally, thanking their stars that they have NATO membership (because guess what? They have lots of ethnic Russians, too!) Do those two countries have a major Russian Naval presence and agreement to put 25,000 troops there to protect those assets. If they seemingly go from constitutional crisis to crisis every time they elect a president? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/895 "2014-03-08T15:27:25Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The local government would deal with the rebellion, the exercise would prevent Russian troops from interfering. You know, the point is to stop Russian expansion. Well, technically, NATO membership would dissuade, not prevent, Russian interference. It is after all entirely possible Russia could ignore the fact Latvia and Estonia are NATO members and just invade them anyway. Whether they’d run that risk is of course another matter, but we sure as hell don’t want them to try, as the options are 1. War, or 2. Basically giving up NATO. NATO’s response to the Crimea fiasco needs to be not trying to fight in Crimea, but demonstrating the capability to fight elsewhere. My concern is that the NATO of 2014 isn’t the NATO of 1987. The NATO of 1987 was not only the greatest armed forces ever assembled, but one that was clearly and unambiguously prepared and willing to go to war to defend its constituent countries, and quite specifically prepared, on an ongoing basis, to fight Soviets. There was hardly any doubt a Soviet attack would have provoked a massive response. Today’s NATO is a club with more members but fewer soldiers and less ongoing military cooperation. It’s also a defensive alliance wherein some of its member states would be rather difficult to defend. NATO in 1987 was basically focused on defending West Germany, that being, if you look at a map of it, really the only logical place a Soviet conventional attack could take place in substantial force. (They could have attacked elsewhere, but not with the same effectiveness) West Germany was also, conveniently, a great place for NATO to assemble a substantial forward defense - the West German army alone was both very large and extremely well equipped - and easily resupplied by the rest of the alliance. By way of comparison today’s NATO is much easier for Russia to attack and much harder for us to defend. Honest question; what happens if Russia invades Estonia? Estonia’s a quarter Russian so Putin would have his supporters, like the sycophants we’ve seen in this thread, happily supporting him. But more pertinently, could NATO do anything about it? Estonia itself has a very small army that Russia would roll over in a couple of days, and then what? What practical access do we have to Estonia? Immediate defense would have roll through the other Baltic states, which Russia easily could, and quite logically should, then attack to interdict that movement. Or you could come over the Baltic Sea, which , again, is a trip a lot closer to Russian guns than NATO’s. Any scenario you present makes it easy for Russia to make a move, and also makes it really easy for the war to escalate quickly. Unless NATO begins right now to demonstrate the preparedness it demonstrated in the Soviet era, don’t for an instant think this sort of thing can’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/896 "2014-03-08T16:26:57Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, technically, NATO membership would dissuade, not prevent, Russian interference. It is after all entirely possible Russia could ignore the fact Latvia and Estonia are NATO members and just invade them anyway. > > Whether they’d run that risk is of course another matter, but we sure as hell don’t want them to try, as the options are > > 1. War, or > 2. Basically giving up NATO. > > NATO’s response to the Crimea fiasco needs to be not trying to fight in Crimea, but demonstrating the capability to fight elsewhere. My concern is that the NATO of 2014 isn’t the NATO of 1987. The NATO of 1987 was not only the greatest armed forces ever assembled, but one that was clearly and unambiguously prepared and willing to go to war to defend its constituent countries, and quite specifically prepared, on an ongoing basis, to fight Soviets. There was hardly any doubt a Soviet attack would have provoked a massive response. > > Today’s NATO is a club with more members but fewer soldiers and less ongoing military cooperation. It’s also a defensive alliance wherein some of its member states would be rather difficult to defend. NATO in 1987 was basically focused on defending West Germany, that being, if you look at a map of it, really the only logical place a Soviet conventional attack could take place in substantial force. (They could have attacked elsewhere, but not with the same effectiveness) West Germany was also, conveniently, a great place for NATO to assemble a substantial forward defense - the West German army alone was both very large and extremely well equipped - and easily resupplied by the rest of the alliance. > > By way of comparison today’s NATO is much easier for Russia to attack and much harder for us to defend. Honest question; what happens if Russia invades Estonia? Estonia’s a quarter Russian so Putin would have his supporters, like the sycophants we’ve seen in this thread, happily supporting him. But more pertinently, could NATO do anything about it? Estonia itself has a very small army that Russia would roll over in a couple of days, and then what? What practical access do we have to Estonia? Immediate defense would have roll through the other Baltic states, which Russia easily could, and quite logically should, then attack to interdict that movement. Or you could come over the Baltic Sea, which , again, is a trip a lot closer to Russian guns than NATO’s. Any scenario you present makes it easy for Russia to make a move, and also makes it really easy for the war to escalate quickly. > > Unless NATO begins right now to demonstrate the preparedness it demonstrated in the Soviet era, don’t for an instant think this sort of thing can’t happen. Y’know, a few months ago I’d have said Russia taking such action against the “fascists” of Estonia was preposterous, but then I’d have said the same regarding the invasion of the Ukraine. What’s the saying “History is littered with wars everyone knew would never happen”. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/897 "2014-03-08T17:19:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > My concern is that the NATO of 2014 isn’t the NATO of 1987. And the Russia of 2014 isn’t the Soviet Union of 1987. The European allies of NATO alone easily out spend Russia, and their forces are a generation ahead technology wise. If you add in the U.S., then it doesn’t even become a contest. If Russia is stupid enough to invade Estonia, then it takes NATO a few days to a week to get air superiority. Then the Russian troops in Estonia will be cut off from their supply lines and systematically destroyed. The Russian move isn’t indicative of strength or new found aggressiveness. It’s indicative of Russian weakness. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/898 "2014-03-08T18:32:44Z")
I am not a fan of this “shows weakness/strength” stuff but I think Russia grabbing Crimea does not show they are willing to invade a NATO country nor NATO’s unwillingness to defend itself. Eta: unless some NATO country is hosting a massive Russian military base I don’t know about. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/899 "2014-03-08T18:37:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I am not a fan of this “shows weakness/strength” stuff but I think Russia grabbing Crimea does not show they are willing to invade a NATO country nor NATO’s unwillingness to defend itself. I agree, but what you or I think is irrelevant. It’s what Putin thinks that is, and a few months ago had Angel Merkel said Putin lived in a different world I’d have scoffed at her. Not anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/900 "2014-03-08T19:50:28Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I am not a fan of this “shows weakness/strength” stuff but I think Russia grabbing Crimea does not show they are willing to invade a NATO country nor NATO’s unwillingness to defend itself. > > Eta: unless some NATO country is hosting a massive Russian military base I don’t know about. It is the presence of large numbers of Ethnic Russians who provide a plausible pretext for Russian interference, not the presence of naval bases, that appears to be the common denominator in recent Russian aggressions. As far as I know, Georgia did not have a Russian naval base, either. The situation in Georgia is almost a carbon-copy of what is going on in Crimea, with the exception that the Georgian version was far more violent (the Ukrainians are not co-operating with Putin’s ‘script’ by reacting with violence and atrocity - apparently, much to Russian surprise). > [@](#): > > In 1989, Ossetians accounted for around 60 percent, Georgians 20 percent, Armenians 10 percent and Russians 5 percent of the population of South Ossetia. As of 2009 about 87.5% of the population of South Ossetia have acquired Russian citizenship, as a result of being Soviet Citizens (Russia extended citizenship to most USSR citizens, as it is internationally recognised as a successor state to the USSR).[92] Additionally, 71% of all Ossetians were living in Russia, most of them just across the Roki Tunnel in North Ossetia, and had family members in South Ossetia.[93] From the viewpoint of Russian constitutional law, the legal position of Russian passport holders in South Ossetia is the same as that of Russian citizens living in Russia.[94] Russian President Dmitry Medvedev stated that he would “protect the life and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are”.[95] According to an EU report, this position is inconsistent with international law, which considers the vast majority of purportedly naturalised persons as not Russian citizens. > **[Russo-Georgian War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_war#Military_buildup)** > > Russian, South Ossetian and Abkhaz victory > Abkhazia > Georgia Sound familiar? Now look at Estonia and Latvia: > **[Russia's Seizure of Crimea Is Making Former Soviet States Nervous](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/russias-seizure-of-crimea-is-making-former-soviet-states-nervous/284156/)** > > The crisis in Ukraine has countries formerly in Russia's orbit fearing Putin's next moves. > [@](#): > > Recent experiences with Russia also fuel Estonia’s concerns. The removal of a Soviet-era war statue from the capital city of Tallinn in 2007 led to riots among ethnic Russians (who make up almost a quarter of Estonia’s population) and diplomatic outrage from Moscow. Shortly thereafter, a concerted, three-week cyberattack crippled Estonian government agencies, banks, news outlets, and other organizations—a vital blow to what some have called “the most wired country in Europe.” Estonian officials blamed the Kremlin for the cyberattacks, a claim Russian officials vociferously denied. > > Putin asserts that Russia has “the right to protect Russian-speaking populations” beyond its borders. > > Linas Linkevicius, Lithuania’s foreign minister, responded on Saturday by invoking Article 4 of the North Atlantic Treaty, whereby NATO member states consult one another if their territorial integrity or political independence is threatened, for only the fourth time in the alliance’s history (Ukraine is not a NATO member). They are right to be frightened. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=46)