# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/901 "2014-03-08T20:06:36Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It is the presence of large numbers of Ethnic Russians who provide a plausible pretext for Russian interference, not the presence of naval bases, that appears to be the common denominator in recent Russian aggressions. It’s not even the “ethnic Russians”. It is "Putin asserts that Russia has “the right to protect **Russian-speaking populations"** beyond its borders.”. Somehow if you know Russian, Putin thinks he has the right to invade to “protect” you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/902 "2014-03-08T20:41:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s not even the “ethnic Russians”. It is "Putin asserts that Russia has “the right to protect **Russian-speaking populations"** beyond its borders.”. Somehow if you know Russian, Putin thinks he has the right to invade to “protect” you. Doesn’t that make you feel warm in the belly? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/903 "2014-03-08T20:53:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s not even the “ethnic Russians”. It is "Putin asserts that Russia has “the right to protect **Russian-speaking populations"** beyond its borders.”. Somehow if you know Russian, Putin thinks he has the right to invade to “protect” you. I’m certain there are English speaking Americans in Russia. I think they’re threatened. Time to invade and occupy Russia! We could start with Kamchatka. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/904 "2014-03-08T20:55:31Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It is the presence of large numbers of Ethnic Russians who provide a plausible pretext for Russian interference, not the presence of naval bases, that appears to be the common denominator in recent Russian aggressions. > \ > > They are right to be frightened. No. We are talking about the actual physical movement of Russian forces massing for an invasion of a NATO country. Estonia is not going to be surprised. NATO would be quickly allowed to put troops there. All this would make an ultimatum for Russia to withdraw unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/905 "2014-03-08T20:59:38Z")
I thought there was a gentlemen’s agreement that great powers can exercise strength in their spheres of influence. Maybe Russia is more of a medium power, but close enough. So the EU lost out on Crimea. They’ll probably get the rest of Ukraine anyway, no need to be greedy. And for all the talk about Cold War 2.0, heck, maybe that’s a swell idea. Let Putin gobble up all the former Soviet states. Remove a couple million people from the workforce and dress 'em up in camo, inject another trillion or so in defense spending, and maybe the economy won’t be in the toilet. OK, wishful thinking, but at least that’s a stimulus Congress could actually pass. ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/906 "2014-03-08T21:02:37Z")
Anyone know how much of Ukraine’s GDP came from Crimea? From a layman’s POV it seems like a rather valuable piece of the pie geographically. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/907 "2014-03-08T21:03:36Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I thought there was a gentlemen’s agreement that great powers can exercise strength in their spheres of influence. Maybe Russia is more of a medium power, but close enough. So the EU lost out on Crimea. They’ll probably get the rest of Ukraine anyway, no need to be greedy. “Get”? Russia is going to get Crimea, by an act of force, and Ukraine may at some point join the EU, but it’s not going to be “gotten” by it. Those two events aren’t even closely related. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/908 "2014-03-08T21:13:13Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > Anyone know how much of Ukraine’s GDP came from Crimea? From a layman’s POV it seems like a rather valuable piece of the pie geographically. It’s valuable but I was under the impression that it gets more than it gives in federal spending. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/909 "2014-03-08T21:15:45Z")
Are there enough Russian speakers in Mississippi to catch Putin’s interest? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/910 "2014-03-08T21:35:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > “Get”? Russia is going to get Crimea, by an act of force, and Ukraine may at some point join the EU, but it’s not going to be “gotten” by it. Are you really haggling over verbs? If you give me a penny of your own free will, I got a penny from you. Teams get players in free agency. Great powers can get countries with soft or hard power. But fine, if you think my post paints Russia as not brutish enough: Russia will conquer Crimea via force of arms, and the West will convince Ukraine to join them via glorious free enterprise so as to thereby increase their standards of living and civil rights. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/911 "2014-03-08T21:35:43Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > Anyone know how much of Ukraine’s GDP came from Crimea? From a layman’s POV it seems like a rather valuable piece of the pie geographically. I’m curious too. Wiki doesn’t have anything on it. If Crimea became independent of both Russia and Ukraine, how would it fair economically? Tourism seems huge there. I could see taking a vacation in an independant Crimea, but a Russian-administrated Crimea? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/912 "2014-03-08T21:38:43Z")
Here is an interesting op-ed piece. > **[Opinion | Russia Has Already Lost the War (Published 2014)](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/opinion/sunday/how-russia-has-already-lost-the-war.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=0)** > > The biggest danger for Vladimir V. Putin is that Ukraine’s revolution will eventually spread toward Russia. The essential thesis: Putin’s heavy-handedness is actually uniting a very fractious Ukraine like nothing else could. Putin’s rhetoric has all been one of ethnic warfare ‘fascists’, the need to ‘protect’ ethnic minorities such as ethnic Russians and Jews, etc. which assumes that the conflict is something like former Yugoslavia. As the world can see, nothing of the sort has happened. Rather, Ukrainians of all stripes have in fact united - not under one leader or party, but simply against foreign domination, and against the abusive, manipulative propaganda aimed against them. For example, Putin has claimed he is acting in part to protect Jews from Ukrainian anti-Semitism. The response: [http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/.premium-1.578474](http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/.premium-1.578474) > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, Putin has lost at least one battle in which he invested major propaganda resources. For weeks, the Kremlin-controlled media has tried to portray the pro-Western parties in Ukraine as “neo-Nazis” and “anti-Semites.” A few Jewish figures, particularly Chabad rabbis, have echoed this rhetoric with warnings of a massive wave of anti-Semitism and calls for the Jews to flee Ukraine. On Wednesday, dozens of Ukrainian Jewish leaders signed a joint open letter (not an easy feat for such a fractious community) to Putin excoriating him for his tendency to “pick and choose lies and slander from the massive amount of information about Ukraine” and accusing him that “in recent days stability in our country has been threatened. And this threat is coming from the Russian government, namely – from you personally. It is your policy of inciting separatism and crude pressure placed on Ukraine that threatens us and all Ukrainian people.” > > In the letter they wrote that, as Russian-speaking Ukrainians, they are not concerned by an alleged attempt to persecute and marginalize Russian-speakers and refuted the Kremlin’s claims saying that “even the most marginal (of political parties) do not dare show anti-Semitism or other xenophobic behavior. And we certainly know that our very few nationalists are well-controlled by civil society and the new Ukrainian government – which is more than can be said for the Russian neo-Nazis, who are encouraged by your security services.” > > Such a coruscating letter to Russia’s leader is unprecedented and is a clear indication that the Jews of Ukraine have decided to put their faith and fate in the hands of the Kiev government. If there are any indications that Putin may yet fail to undermine his neighbor and install a puppet regime in Kiev, the fact that Ukraine’s Jews are no longer sitting on the fence is one. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/913 "2014-03-08T21:41:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Are there enough Russian speakers in Mississippi to catch Putin’s interest? Probably not but Israel and the West Bank have a quite a few. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/914 "2014-03-08T21:49:39Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The notion that the expansion of NATO was driven entirely by Western animus against Russia, and not by the fears of the countries at issue _of_ Russia, is patently absurd - particularly right now, when the leaders of Latvia and Estonia are, quite literally, thanking their stars that they have NATO membership (because guess what? They have lots of ethnic Russians, too!) > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Do those two countries have a major Russian Naval presence and agreement to put 25,000 troops there to protect those assets. If they seemingly go from constitutional crisis to crisis every time they elect a president? Apparently Latvia and Estonia do not have even a remotely similar deal and situation as Crimea has with the Russian Federation, yet many here are stoking up fear that Putin is going to go after any country that has Russian-Speaking citizens that might need a bit of protecting. And I haven’t seen anyone insisting that “The notion that the expansion of NATO was driven \*\*entirely \*\*by Western animus against Russia.” Key word being **“entirely”** since reality would dictate that its some of both with other motivations added in. Who here things it was either ‘entirely’ based on fear or 'entirely based on Western pressure based upon their animus toward Russia that led countries to want to join NATO George Soros is not connected to the US Government or any Government by his animus toward Russian leaders and the money he puts into ‘democracy projects’ certainly have an informal connection to Western Government’s to the point where ‘animus’ toward Russia is indistinguishable if its coming from Governmnet or Private sources and action. Does Soro’s name pop up on many of this ‘crisis’ situations … I know he was connected in many ways to Sakaashvilli’s path to the Presidency of Georgia. Sakaaash was NYC lawyer before being encouraged to run for the Presidency of Georgia… Of course there was nothing odd about that at all. After Sakaash … shelled and killed Russian Federation Peacekeepers and civilian in South Ossetia in a full scale military assault - Soros went very silent about the democracy project in Georgia. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/915 "2014-03-08T21:57:11Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Probably not but Israel and the West Bank have a quite a few. There’s a lot Russian Speakers in D.C. and Virginia Beach during the summer season when the young Russians come here to work. D.C. and Virginia Beach is pretty well fortified so no telling where Putin will strike next. If Putin is preparing to take Israel on that basis then It’s probably best we go to war right now over Crimea and nip it in the bud - don’t you think? What are you arguing that must be done? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/916 "2014-03-08T22:19:17Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It’s valuable but I was under the impression that it gets more than it gives in federal spending. The more I look, the more obvious it is that this is going to cost Putin beaucoup $$$: [http://www.traveltoukraine.org/crimea/tourism-stats.php](http://www.traveltoukraine.org/crimea/tourism-stats.php) > [@](#): > > The citizens of Ukraine comprise the largest share (69.2%) in the structure of tourist visits. The share of 27.9% stands for the visitors from the former Soviet countries (Russia, Belarus, Moldova, etc.). So that’s a major part of the economy that’s going to dry up some. > **[Vladimir Putin Is Miscalculating How Easy It Will Be to Control Crimea](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014/03/vladimir-putins-crimean-mistake-the-russian-president-is-miscalculating-how-easy-it-will-be-to-control-crimea.html)** > > With events in Ukraine changing so quickly, it is impossible to predict what will happen next. But now that the Russian parliament has rubber-stamped... > [@](#): > > What’s left out of most Western analyses of Putin’s brazen military intervention is the Crimea’s complete economic dependence on the mainland, which provides nearly all of its electricity and water and about 70 percent of its food. So now Ukraine can claw back some of Russian gas sale money, plus retaliate when Russia threatens higher prices. But we already knew that Ukraine is in a shit hole economy and Putin didn’t exactly grab the rich section. We can only assume that the port was worth it to him and his supporters. Until they have to start paying the bill that is. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/917 "2014-03-08T22:24:15Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Apparently Latvia and Estonia do not have even a remotely similar deal and situation as Crimea has with the Russian Federation, yet many here are stoking up fear that Putin is going to go after any country that has Russian-Speaking citizens that might need a bit of protecting. The fear is coming _from_ the leaders of Poland, Latvia and Estonia, not from us. 😃 It wasn’t us here that invoked article 4 of NATO, but Latvia, Lithuania and Poland. > **[North Atlantic Treaty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty#Article_Four)** > > The North Atlantic Treaty, also known as the Washington Treaty, forms the legal basis of, and is implemented by, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). The treaty was signed in Washington, D.C., on 4 April 1949. > The treaty was signed in Washington, D.C., on 4 April 1949 by a committee which was chaired by US diplomat Theodore Achilles. Earlier secret talks had been held at the Pentagon between 22 March and 1 April 1948, of which Achilles said: > The talks lasted about two weeks and by ... I’m sure a screed about Mr. Soros is a complete answer to this, somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/918 "2014-03-08T22:25:11Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > There’s a lot Russian Speakers in D.C. and Virginia Beach during the summer season when the young Russians come here to work. D.C. and Virginia Beach is pretty well fortified so no telling where Putin will strike next. > > If Putin is preparing to take Israel on that basis then It’s probably best we go to war right now over Crimea and nip it in the bud - don’t you think? > What are you arguing that must be done? Ok, I’m sorry but this was quite possibly the most unintentionally funny thing I’ve read on this site. Mace made a joke about Russian speakers in Mississippi and I continued with the joke. Now you may resume what you were doing. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/919 "2014-03-08T22:26:21Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > There’s a lot Russian Speakers in D.C. and Virginia Beach during the summer season when the young Russians come here to work. D.C. and Virginia Beach is pretty well fortified so no telling where Putin will strike next. > > If Putin is preparing to take Israel on that basis then It’s probably best we go to war right now over Crimea and nip it in the bud - don’t you think? > What are you arguing that must be done? He was making a funny, not an argument. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/920 "2014-03-08T22:27:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, I’m sorry but this was quite possibly the most unintentionally funny thing I’ve read on this site. > > Mace made a joke about Russian speakers in Mississippi and I continued with the joke. > > Now you may resume what you were doing. The Jokes are part of your argument. I understand that. Serious talk is not in the cards I guess from the we need to ‘fear the worst’ for Putin crowd. Going skiing for a bit… talk to you later… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=47)