# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/961 "2014-03-10T12:20:56Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You’ve done an excellent impression of someone who is. > > I’d also point out that your reference to my post back in 2008 about the Georgia crisis… well, missed the point there, and in rather spectacular fashion. > > 1. Ukraine isn’t part of NATO. Ukraine even before Yakunoyvich was elected was lukewarm, at most, about full partnership in NATO, and the Maidan protests weren’t about joining NATO. We can all see, and rather plainly, that this isn’t about NATO expansion. It’s about money, plain and simple; Russia wants Ukraine in its trade bloc, and that wasn’t the way it was going to go after the ouster of the pro-Russia President. But in 2008 when you told what the problem was, Ukraine was on a path to join NATO. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/962 "2014-03-10T12:38:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by RickJay 1. Ukraine isn’t part of NATO. Ukraine even before Yakunoyvich was elected was lukewarm, at most, about full partnership in NATO, and the Maidan protests weren’t about joining NATO. We can all see, and rather plainly, that this isn’t about NATO expansion. It’s about money, plain and simple; Russia wants Ukraine in its trade bloc, and that wasn’t the way it was going to go after the ouster of the pro-Russia President. That is quite the bold statement that this is not about NATO expansion. Ukraine goes back and forth depending on who pays best. It’s about all that and ridiculous NATO encirclement of Russia - in trade and for defense. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/963 "2014-03-10T14:05:44Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Hasn’t a lot of this rapid expansion of NATO into the former East Bloc countries come at the instigation of the Eastern European countries itself? It’s not so much that there’s some Western plot to “encircle” Russia as it is that countries like Poland, the Baltic countries, the former Czechoslovakia, etc are worried about Russian power due to their history with Russia and are trying to protect themselves? > > It’s not that I don’t understand why Russia is worried, but there’s a certain kind of nasty irony in the whole thing. Yes, as several of us have already noted. If Russia doesn’t want it’s neighbors joining NATO, it should try being a good neighbor instead of a bad one. Of course, it’s already done enough in the last century on the “bad” side that it’s probably too late for this in the short term. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/964 "2014-03-10T14:34:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yes, as several of us have already noted. If Russia doesn’t want it’s neighbors joining NATO, it should try being a good neighbor instead of a bad one. Of course, it’s already done enough in the last century on the “bad” side that it’s probably too late for this in the short term. Georgia was a deadly example of bad neighbor aggression in 2008. Your argument is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/965 "2014-03-10T14:57:28Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Georgia was a deadly example of bad neighbor aggression in 2008. Your argument is meaningless. You’re right. That whole USSR experiment was just a little misunderstanding between neighbors. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania-- you have nothing to complain about since Georgia instigated a tiff with Russia a few years ago. :smack: What was I thinking. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/966 "2014-03-10T15:48:16Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > But in 2008 when you told what the problem was, Ukraine was on a path to join NATO. So what? It’s not 2008 anymore. Russia did not invade Crimea in 2008. > [@](#): > > Is deliberate firing of missiles and sending tanks to kill Russian Federation soldiers without armored units at the ready to defend themselves, ‘doing something bad’ to Russia? I suppose it would be. Has Ukraine done this? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/967 "2014-03-11T02:09:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re right. That whole USSR experiment was just a little misunderstanding between neighbors. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania-- you have nothing to complain about since Georgia instigated a tiff with Russia a few years ago. > > :smack: What was I thinking. If the past you wish to forget and suppress is not permissible in today’s debate about Crimea, why is the past history of the USSR allowed in? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/968 "2014-03-11T02:22:26Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If the past you wish to forget and suppress is not permissible in today’s debate about Crimea, why is the past history of the USSR allowed in? Who says anything about suppressing or forgetting? The fact that Georgia initiated hostilities with Russia has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not other countries should be wary of Russia based on Russia’s actions over the the last few centuries. If you think it has some relevance, tell us what it is instead of just linking to some description of it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/969 "2014-03-11T02:50:38Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > So what? It’s not 2008 anymore. Russia did not invade Crimea in 2008. \<“Cite Well then with that kind of reasoning, why belly ache over Russian troops being positioned across the Crimean Peninsula in 2014. On January 1, in 2015 it won’t be 2014 any more. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by (-John Mace 03-10-2014 10:05 AM) Yes, as several of us have already noted. If Russia doesn’t want it’s neighbors joining NATO, it should try being a good neighbor instead of a bad one. Of course, it’s already done enough in the last century on the “bad” side that it’s probably too late for this in the short term. \<“Cite ” If \*as several here have noted \* that the Wests past history of violating international borders and killing human beings and destroying their property in the process cannot be part of a 2014 argument. Why is John Mace going back through the entire past century to point out the “Bad” side of Russian behavior. So can any of you list Russia’s “bad behavior” against its neighbors since the break up of the Soviet Union a little over two decades ago? There is Russian bad behavior in Syria, but where else has Russia unjustifiably been a ‘bad neighbor’? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/970 "2014-03-11T03:06:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Who says anything about suppressing or forgetting? The fact that Georgia initiated hostilities with Russia has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not other countries should be wary of Russia based on Russia’s actions over the the last few centuries. > > If you think it has some relevance, tell us what it is instead of just linking to some description of it. The relevance is that Georgia is the only incident (not counting Crimea as we speak) that I can think of since 1991 where Russian military forces crossed an internationally recognized border. But they attacked in that case **justifiably** according to the EU Commissioned report. The invasion into Georgia proper was to eliminate the Georgian Army’s capability to ever strike and kill Russian People and troops again. And that was not really a case of Russian being a ‘bad’ neighbor at all. NATO has been running the War in Afghanistan and Russia has allowed land transport of military equipment in and out of that war zone. that’s not a ‘bad’ neighbor. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/971 "2014-03-11T03:08:11Z")
NotfooledbyW, please do not add words to other posters’ words inside quote boxes, that is not permitted on the SDMB and it’s a rule we are very particular about. Even that little “\ **Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/972 "2014-03-11T03:44:08Z") > [@RickJay](#): > > I’d also point out that your reference to my post back in 2008 about the Georgia crisis… well, missed the point there, and in rather spectacular fashion. > > 1. Ukraine isn’t part of NATO. Ukraine even before Yakunoyvich was elected was lukewarm, at most, about full partnership in NATO, and the Maidan protests weren’t about joining NATO. We can all see, and rather plainly, that this isn’t about NATO expansion. It’s about money, plain and simple; Russia wants Ukraine in its trade bloc, and that wasn’t the way it was going to go after the ouster of the pro-Russia President. Ukraine above anything else and in the condition it is in economically can be bought. What you claim to see plainly makes little sense. If trade were the highest priority in Putin’s strategic view he could have joined the EU and the US in some kind of joint partnership ‘on trade’ that would have worked out better then sending troops into Crimea however peaceful that ‘invasion’ been. I think Putin initially took Crimea to bolster his negotiating position with certain demands he would not be able to get by cooperating on ‘trade’ with the new ‘illegal’ government in Kiev. He will want a guarantee that no Missile Defense shield be built even if Republican gets back in the White House. And he surely would not want Georgia or Ukraine to be allowed to join NATO. Ukraine is a concern … because as I said… Ukrainians can be bought. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/973 "2014-03-11T04:45:22Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The relevance is that Georgia is the only incident (not counting Crimea as we speak) that I can think of since 1991 where Russian military forces crossed an internationally recognized border. But they attacked in that case **justifiably** according to the EU Commissioned report. The invasion into Georgia proper was to eliminate the Georgian Army’s capability to ever strike and kill Russian People and troops again. You forget what is happening right now in Crimea. > [@](#): > > And that was not really a case of Russian being a ‘bad’ neighbor at all. Well, you seem to be forgetting 100 years of history when Russia absorbed the surrounding countries whether they wanted it or not. Do you know the history of the Baltic states? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/974 "2014-03-11T11:18:33Z")
Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW The relevance is that Georgia is the only incident (not counting Crimea as we speak) that I can think of since 1991 where Russian > [@](#): > > military forces crossed an internationally recognized border. But they attacked in that case justifiably according to the EU Commissioned report. The invasion into Georgia proper was to eliminate the Georgian Army’s capability to ever strike and kill Russian People and troops again. > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > You forget what is happening right now in Crimea. Are you kidding me? Look at what you have cited - in parenthesis. Since I am not forgetting about Crimea - can you you provide the list where Russians gave attacked any other country in violation of international law since 1991? It appears your Russian fear-mongering must go back a hundred years. And according to RickJay its improper to go back to 2008 and 2003 to point out times when the West did not give ray’s ass about being bad neighbors and killed human beings in violation of international law and argue to this day that it was all justified. Where’s the list of Russian bad-neighborly aggression since 1991 and during the Putin era? ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_Merton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Frank\_Merton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_Merton)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/975 "2014-03-11T11:29:34Z")
So long as Obama is President, the US will do nothing except talk and reduce its own military. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/976 "2014-03-11T12:01:51Z")
> [@Frank\_Merton](#): > > So long as Obama is President, the US will do nothing except talk and reduce its own military. If the alternative is having a President who will go to war with Russia, I think the US will be better off with Obama. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/977 "2014-03-11T12:12:51Z")
Just heard on ABC News half of Americans oppose sanctions against Russia by the US if the EU is not involved. This early in the crisis its not looking good for Western Bias against Putin. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_Merton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Frank\_Merton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_Merton)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/978 "2014-03-11T13:10:24Z")
Sheesh: you jump to the conclusion that I advocate war with Russia. No wonder with that intelligence you think Obama a good choice. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/979 "2014-03-11T14:01:52Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > And according to RickJay its improper to go back to 2008 and 2003 to point out times when the West did not give ray’s ass about being bad neighbors and killed human beings in violation of international law and argue to this day that it was all justified. Sigh. No, W, I did not say that. You don’t even seem to understand what other people are telling you. If you’re not going to read anyone’s posts but your own, you’re not going to get a lot out of a discussion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/980 "2014-03-11T14:42:21Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW The relevance is that Georgia is the only incident (not counting Crimea as we speak) that I can think of since 1991 where Russian > > Are you kidding me? Look at what you have cited - in parenthesis. I don’t care whether you put it in parenthesis or not-- you want us to forget it. When someone says: Former Soviet/Warsaw Pact Countries are shaking in the their boots as they watch what’s going on in Crimea, you act bewildered and ask when (other than what is going on in Crimea now) did Russia act as a bad neighbor? What a ridiculous question, as it completely ignores the very topic of this thread, and the very reason why those countries are nervous!! And, just because Russia hasn’t gobbled up any countries in the last few years, it has a history of doing so in living memory, so they have to live with the consequences of that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=50)