# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 51
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1001 "2014-03-11T22:10:28Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Is that what you intended to write? The “they” (after the comma) means Russia, and not Western Europe. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1002 "2014-03-12T01:00:08Z")
On 03-05-2014 at 10:37 AM Malthus, wrote, "The difference, of course, between the euromaidan protestors and the gunmen in control of Crimea is that the one is an indigenous protest movement and the other is a foreign invasion.” I wonder if Malthus can reliably guarantee that there was no ‘foreign money’ involved in the protest movement to bring down the elected Yanukovich government. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1003 "2014-03-12T01:11:05Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > On 03-05-2014 at 10:37 AM Malthus, wrote, "The difference, of course, between the euromaidan protestors and the gunmen in control of Crimea is that the one is an indigenous protest movement and the other is a foreign invasion.” > I wonder if Malthus can reliably guarantee that there was no ‘foreign money’ involved in the protest movement to bring down the elected Yanukovich government. He’s right regardless. There’s a distinct difference between maybe some foreign money helped out a domestic movement and foreign troops coming in. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1004 "2014-03-12T03:15:58Z")
On 03-03-2014 at 07:41 AM AK84 wrote, “Putin is not yet moving into the Ukraine proper. That surprised me.” Perhaps he has been waiting for this poll. \*“Few Americans want ‘firm stand’ against Russia in Ukraine,” \*by Aaron Blake, March 11 at 10:23 am: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/03/11/few-americans-want-firm-stand-against-russia-in-ukraine/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/03/11/few-americans-want-firm-stand-against-russia-in-ukraine/) > [@](#): > > A new poll suggests Americans have very little appetite for any real involvement in the crisis in Ukraine. > > Only 29 percent of Americans would like for the Obama administration to take a “firm stand” against Russia’s incursion into its neighbor, according to the Pew Research Center poll, while nearly twice as many – 56 percent – prefer the United States not to get too involved in Ukraine. Buzzword fear-mongering journalism is not working so well any more. As time goes by it gets worse for fear mongers: Just wait until Americans figure out that the new government in Ukraine violated the Constitution when the replaced the elected President with a new one. This government is illegal… Here’s some key excerpts but all should read the entire report: > **[How William Hague Deceived the House of Commons on Ukraine](https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/david-morrison/ukraine-willliam-hague_b_4933177.html?ir=UK%2BPolitics)** > > In a statement on 4 March 2014, Foreign Minister William Hague deceived the House of Commons about the legitimacy of the new regime in Ukraine... He led the House to believe that the Ukrainian parliament, the Verkhovna Rada, had removed President... > [@](#): > > It is simply untrue that the Rada followed the procedure laid down in the Ukrainian constitution to impeach and remove a president from power. > > Article 108 of the constitution specifies four circumstances in which a president may cease to exercise power before the end of his term. Those are: > •resignation; > •inability to exercise his or her powers for reasons of health; > •removal from office by the procedure of impeachment; > •death. > > The procedure for removal from office by impeachment is laid down in Article 111. It is not unlike that required for the impeachment and removal from power of a US president, which could take months. > > Thus, Article 111 obliges the Rada to establish a special investigatory commission to formulate charges against the president, seek evidence to justify the charges and come to conclusions about the president’s guilt for the Rada to consider. To find the president guilty, at least two-thirds of Rada members must assent. > > Prior to a final vote to remove the president from power, the procedure requires > •the Constitutional Court of Ukraine to review the case and certify that the constitutional procedure of investigation and consideration has been followed, and > •the Supreme Court of Ukraine to certify that the acts of which the President is accused are worthy of impeachment. > > To remove the president from power, at least three-quarters of Rada members must assent. > > The Rada didn’t follow this procedure at all. No investigatory commission was established and the Courts were not involved. On 22 February, the Rada simply passed a bill removing President Yanukovych from office. > > Furthermore, the bill wasn’t even supported by three-quarters of Rada members as required by Article 111 - it was supported by 328 members, when it required 338 (since the Rada has 450 members). > President Putin questioned the legitimacy of the authorities in Kiev at his press conference on 4 March, just before William Hague spoke in the House of Commons: > > > [@](#): > > > > "Are the current authorities legitimate? The Parliament is partially, but all the others are not. The current Acting President is definitely not legitimate. There is only one legitimate President, from a legal standpoint. Clearly, he has no power. However, as I have already said, and will repeat: Yanukovych is the only undoubtedly legitimate President. > > > > "There are three ways of removing a President under Ukrainian law: one is his death, the other is when he personally steps down, and the third is impeachment. The latter is a well-deliberated constitutional norm. It has to involve the Constitutional Court, the Supreme Court and the Rada. This is a complicated and lengthy procedure. It was not carried out. Therefore, from a legal perspective this is an undisputed fact > > ." > There is a fourth way - ill health - but, aside from that, Putin is undoubtedly correct. > > David Morrison has written widely on the deception perpetrated by the British government to induce the British public to support military action against Iraq. > He is the author with Peter Oborne of A Dangerous Delusion: Why the West is Wrong about Nuclear Iran published in April 2013. More of his writing is available at [david-morrison.org.uk](http://david-morrison.org.uk) Why must Crimea follow Ukraine’s Constitution if Ukraine is in violation of Ukraine’s Constitution? ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1005 "2014-03-12T07:53:35Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Why must Crimea follow Ukraine’s Constitution if Ukraine is in violation of Ukraine’s Constitution? For the umpteenth time in this thread: because two wrongs don’t make a bloody right. Hosni Mubarak’s overthrow in 2011 was probably illegal according to Egyptian law. So was Ben-Ali’s in Tunisia. That doesn’t allow a free-for-all in terms of illegal behaviour ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1006 "2014-03-12T10:41:57Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Why must Crimea follow Ukraine’s Constitution if Ukraine is in violation of Ukraine’s Constitution? And even so, that’s a red herring to distract from the fact that the people pushing hardest for the Crimean referendum _are the Russians_. I have no objection to a free and fair independence referendum in Crimea. One conducted at gunpoint, with the pro-Ukraine protesters being suppressed and beaten by Russian troops, is not free and fair by any means. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_Merton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Frank\_Merton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_Merton)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1007 "2014-03-12T10:56:42Z")
I think the takeover of Crimea using the Russian majority there is an excuse for the eventual takeover of the whole Ukraine as part of rebuilding the Russian Empire. All countries have regions with ethnic minorities but rarely are they allowed to separate; national sovereignty means something. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1008 "2014-03-12T11:17:12Z")
> [@Frank\_Merton](#): > > I think the takeover of Crimea using the Russian majority there is an excuse for the eventual takeover of the whole Ukraine as part of rebuilding the Russian Empire. All countries have regions with ethnic minorities but rarely are they allowed to separate; national sovereignty means something. I’m going to go out and say that taking over the whole of Ukraine is a near impossibility. It’s a humongous country with a large population and very close to the EU border. Plus the western half of the country wants nothing to do with Russia. If Putin decides to go for it, that will be proof that he is indeed out of his mind. And this is a bit off-topic, but it will be interesting to follow the situation of Russian minorities in the Baltic states. Countries like Estonia have seen the potential de-stabilising effect that a Russian minority can have, and will likely move to prevent future troubles. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1009 "2014-03-12T11:23:12Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > For the umpteenth time in this thread: because two wrongs don’t make a bloody right. > > Hosni Mubarak’s overthrow in 2011 was probably illegal according to Egyptian law. So was Ben-Ali’s in Tunisia. That doesn’t allow a free-for-all in terms of illegal behaviour > [@Gyrate](#): > > And even so, that’s a red herring to distract from the fact that the people pushing hardest for the Crimean referendum _are the Russians_. I have no objection to a free and fair independence referendum in Crimea. One conducted at gunpoint, with the pro-Ukraine protesters being suppressed and beaten by Russian troops, is not free and fair by any means. Your red herrings are beginning to smell and your two cokes have lost their fizzle. Let me ask you some important questions. Is it your considerate opinion that it is written into Ukraine’s Constitution or allowable that The Ukraine can constitutionally have two sitting presidents and therefore two Commanders in Chief simultaneously? Is it possible that Ukraine’s Armed Forces personnel could be in a state of confusion as to which acting President has command and control of the military or neither? Did the militants that appointed the non-elected President without proper, legal, constitutional impeachment proceedings appoint a known nationalist with connections to fascism to replace the Secretary of Defense? ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_Merton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Frank\_Merton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_Merton)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1010 "2014-03-12T11:26:39Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > I’m going to go out and say that taking over the whole of Ukraine is a near impossibility. It’s a humongous country with a large population and very close to the EU border. Plus the western half of the country wants nothing to do with Russia. If Putin decides to go for it, that will be proof that he is indeed out of his mind. > > And this is a bit off-topic, but it will be interesting to follow the situation of Russian minorities in the Baltic states. Countries like Estonia have seen the potential de-stabilising effect that a Russian minority can have, and will likely move to prevent future troubles. I don’t disagree with you; Putin is just being opportunistic at the moment. What worries me is when they have the Russian army back and the US has no effective army at all. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1011 "2014-03-12T11:43:41Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Your red herrings are beginning to smell and your two cokes have lost their fizzle. Let me ask you some important questions. Is it your considerate opinion that it is written into Ukraine’s Constitution or allowable that The Ukraine can constitutionally have two sitting presidents and therefore two Commanders in Chief simultaneously? > > Is it possible that Ukraine’s Armed Forces personnel could be in a state of confusion as to which acting President has command and control of the military or neither? > > Did the militants that appointed the non-elected President without proper, legal, constitutional impeachment proceedings appoint a known nationalist with connections to fascism to replace the Secretary of Defense? What the hell does any of that have to do with what I wrote? ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1012 "2014-03-12T11:48:00Z")
> [@Frank\_Merton](#): > > I don’t disagree with you; Putin is just being opportunistic at the moment. What worries me is when they have the Russian army back and the US has no effective army at all. If Putin were to take over Ukraine, his main problem would not be the USA’s army. His problem would be controlling a country larger than Germany, dealing with its large - if underequipped - army, and 40 million angry people. It’s simply unfeasible in the long term, regardless of how the USA responds ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1013 "2014-03-12T12:03:37Z")
> [@Frank\_Merton](#): > > What worries me is when they have the Russian army back and the US has no effective army at all. You keep saying this; What does this even mean? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1014 "2014-03-12T16:05:50Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > What the hell does any of that have to do with what I wrote? You wrote, “And even so, that’s a red herring to distract from the fact that the people pushing hardest for the Crimean referendum are the Russians. I have no objection to a free and fair independence referendum in Crimea. One conducted at gunpoint, with the pro-Ukraine protesters being suppressed and beaten by Russian troops, is not free and fair by any means.” There is no red herring distraction from the fact you have presented since you have no way of knowing who is ‘pushing hard’ for independence. The salient fact is that without Russian Federation troop presence in Crimea there is no referendum on independence taking place. And that gets to my questions that you don’t appear to wish to answer. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1015 "2014-03-12T16:43:36Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The salient fact is that without Russian Federation troop presence in Crimea there is no referendum on independence taking place. It sure is. What you don’t seem to grasp is that this is what makes the referendum a farce. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1016 "2014-03-12T16:48:30Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > And even so, that’s a red herring to distract from the fact that the people pushing hardest for the Crimean referendum _are the Russians_. I have no objection to a free and fair independence referendum in Crimea. One conducted at gunpoint, with the pro-Ukraine protesters being suppressed and beaten by Russian troops, is not free and fair by any means. Since when is hyperbole a substitute for a cite in GD? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1017 "2014-03-12T16:49:39Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > For the umpteenth time in this thread: because two wrongs don’t make a bloody right. I asked you why must Crimea follow Ukraine’s Constitution if Ukraine is in violation of Ukraine’s Constitution? You have avoided answering that question. Your reply attempts to establish that Crimea has done something wrong. What has Crimea done wrong They are working with the only constitutionally elected President of The Ukraine. Their President has not been impeached in accordance with the Ukraine’s Constitution. The legitimate President of The Ukraine asked for Russian protection and assistance until this constitutional crisis is resolved. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1018 "2014-03-12T16:58:29Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I asked you why must Crimea follow Ukraine’s Constitution if Ukraine is in violation of Ukraine’s Constitution? You have avoided answering that question. Your reply attempts to establish that Crimea has done something wrong. What has Crimea done wrong They are working with the only constitutionally elected President of The Ukraine. Their President has not been impeached in accordance with the Ukraine’s Constitution. The legitimate President of The Ukraine asked for Russian protection and assistance until this constitutional crisis is resolved. Wouldn’t you consider what happened in Kiev to be “more of a constitutional act”? It was an act of parliament. In all seriousness, though, whether or not that was constitutional is debatable. I don’t think you can just declare it to be unconstitutional without making your case. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1019 "2014-03-12T17:07:51Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It sure is. What you don’t seem to grasp is that this is what makes the referendum a farce. What makes it a farce? The Crimeans where not protected by The Ukraine’s Constitution. The farce is your insistence that Crimea must now get permission, under Ukrainian security, to vote for separation from an illegal government that exists only by its violence against the elected government and its violations of constitutional law. There’s the farce. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1020 "2014-03-12T17:15:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wouldn’t you consider what happened in Kiev to be “more of a constitutional act”? It was an act of parliament. So was the Court involved in the impeachment process? Parliament can’t do it. You have no agrgument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=50) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=52)