# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 54
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1061 "2014-03-13T04:05:29Z")
> [@XT](#): > > But you believe it’s peachy keen for Russia to essentially blockade Ukrainian ports and military bases, and move in force into the Crimea to do what they are doing, right? There is no other way for the people of Crimea to have a say in what direction they want to go. So you think it was peachy keen for Khrushchev to give Ukraine the ‘gift’ of Crimea that had nothing to do with democracy or self governance. The Western media and Governments have shaded the truth about the 2008 conflict between Russia and Georgia which tells me that we should be aware of the potential problems with the perspective that is being provided to all of us. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1062 "2014-03-13T04:11:37Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So the next time the U.S. funds some rebellion you’ll be right on board. There will never be a situation similar to this one … never. But Obama verifies that the Russian military presence in Crimea will have this effect on the overall outcome: > [@](#): > > A possible option for easing the dispute emerged earlier this week. Crimea’s parliament announced that if voters there back splitting off from Ukraine, the region would first declare itself an independent state. The move would give Moscow the option of saying there is no need for Crimea to become part of Russia while keeping it firmly within its sphere of influence. > > Obama acknowledged that even if the referendum can be stopped, \*\*Crimea is unlikely to go back to its old relationship with the rest of Ukraine. \*\* > > [http://bigstory.ap.org/article/obama...pm-white-house](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/obama...pm-white-house) What is wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1063 "2014-03-13T05:18:56Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > There will never be a situation similar to this one … never. . . . How can you possibly know that? It might happen in Kashmir, or Tibet, or any number of other places, at any time. It already happened in the Ossetia region of Georgia, not too many years ago. Never? No student of history would ever use such a word. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1064 "2014-03-13T05:20:15Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > He has chosen to disregard the Ukraine’s Constitution as not relevant to the USA in dealings with the new government in Ukraine. Most in the West will disregard the Constitution and recognize the new government of Ukraine as legitimate. You didn’t answer the question. Is Obama wrong, yes or no? > [@](#): > > What I’ve said is that Putin does not recognize the new government as legitimate and Putin’s view is in line with the Constitution of Ukraine. > > If you can argue away the language in the Constitution of Ukraine why not try. > > Obama has not done that as far as I know. > > I don’t believe the People of Crimea are bound to Obama and Merkel and necessarily must be required to ignore the Constitution of Ukraine and take orders from the illegitimate government in Kiev. Can you quote the part of the constitution you are concerned about? ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1065 "2014-03-13T07:47:57Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > There is no other way for the people of Crimea to have a say in what direction they want to go. I don’t know why you keep repeating this when it’s complete and utter bollocks. As soon as things are settled and a new election is held, the Ukrainian constitution will remain in place. You know, the one that **does** allow for an independence referendum. I mean, applying your argument (if you indeed have such a thing) to other cases shows just how ridiculous it is. Imagine that France invaded the Spanish Basque Country in the 70s, and forced them to hold an independence referendum. Sure, Franco’s government was illegitimate, but that doesn’t give an outside force the right to intervene in local affairs. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1066 "2014-03-13T11:18:00Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > I don’t know why you keep repeating this when it’s complete and utter bollocks. As soon as things are settled and a new election is held, the Ukrainian constitution will remain in place. You know, the one that **does** allow for an independence referendum. > > I mean, applying your argument (if you indeed have such a thing) to other cases shows just how ridiculous it is. Imagine that France invaded the Spanish Basque Country in the 70s, and forced them to hold an independence referendum. Sure, Franco’s government was illegitimate, but that doesn’t give an outside force the right to intervene in local affairs. You are flat out wrong. The whole of Ukraine gets to vote if Crimea may secede and 38 million to 2 million against allowing secession means it will never happen. I posted what Obama said about that. Crimea will be out of Kiev’s control. Now it is a matter of to what degree. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_Merton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Frank\_Merton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_Merton)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1067 "2014-03-13T11:20:59Z")
I wonder if the secession of Crimea would have effects on Ukrainian politics (especially proportional nationalities) that Russia in the long run might regret. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1068 "2014-03-13T11:22:18Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Since when is hyperbole a substitute for a cite in GD? Which part of what I said is hyperbole? ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1069 "2014-03-13T11:39:24Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You are flat out wrong. The whole of Ukraine gets to vote if Crimea may secede and 38 million to 2 million against allowing secession means it will never happen. Strange that you keep going on about how the uprising and current government were against Ukranian legality, yet you’re so happy to throw the Ukranian constitution down the drain when its terms don’t appeal to you. Good to see what we’re dealing with here. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1070 "2014-03-13T12:03:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You didn’t answer the question. Is Obama wrong, yes or no? > Can you quote the part of the constitution you are concerned about? Provide a statement from Obama where he explains the Constitutional validity of the rushed impeachment of Yanukovich following violent protests in Kiev. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1071 "2014-03-13T12:25:18Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Strange that you keep going on about how the uprising and current government were against Ukranian legality, yet you’re so happy to throw the Ukranian constitution down the drain when its terms don’t appeal to you. Good to see what we’re dealing with here. The movement in Crimea to secede was a reaction to the uprisings unconstitutional legislative moves. That suspended the Constitution creating the opportunity to secede. I think that is correct. The Crimean Parliament has declared its Independence from the Ukraine. They are no longer bound to the illegal government in Ukraine or their suspended/ defunct Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1072 "2014-03-13T12:42:36Z")
> [@Frank\_Merton](#): > > I wonder if the secession of Crimea would have effects on Ukrainian politics (especially proportional nationalities) that Russia in the long run might regret. I think Putin sees the utter lawlessness in the West’s land grab of The Ukraine as time to concede the politics of Kiev to the West. Putin does not care as long as his base and the ethnic Russians are protected. And he wants no Ukrainain military assets on the Crimean Peninsula. Crimea has potentential to become a flourishing Indeoendent Nation when its separation from the undemocratic turmoil in Kiev is concluded. If it is done without bloodshed more power to them. That should be the standard for the world to recognize. Not the shit that happened in Kiev. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_Merton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Frank\_Merton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_Merton)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1073 "2014-03-13T12:47:36Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I think Putin sees the utter lawlessness in the West’s land grab of The Ukraine as time to concede the politics of Kiev to the West. Putin does not care as long as his base and the ethnic Russians are protected. And he wants no Ukrainain military assets on the Crimean Peninsula. Crimea has potentential to become a flourishing Indeoendent Nation when its separation from the undemocratic turmoil in Kiev is concluded. > > If it is done without bloodshed more power to them. That should be the standard for the world to recognize. Not the shit that happened in Kiev. Well I see you didn’t address my question at all. Instead you produce disinformation. I can make guesses as to why, but it would have helped if you actually addressed the issue asked. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1074 "2014-03-13T12:52:40Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The movement in Crimea to secede was a reaction to the uprisings unconstitutional legislative moves. That suspended the Constitution creating the opportunity to secede. I think that is correct. I think it is not. The “movement in Crimea to secede” was wholly manufactured by the Russians who jumped in using the crisis as a pretext. Note that the referendum as written doesn’t give the Crimeans the option to vote for true independence. Funny, that. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1075 "2014-03-13T12:57:56Z")
You really are a character, **NotfooledbyW**. For your own sake I hope that you’re just trolling us with what you know is utter bollocks. See you around. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1076 "2014-03-13T13:42:18Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Provide a statement from Obama where he explains the Constitutional validity of the rushed impeachment of Yanukovich following violent protests in Kiev. Wow. You are so enamored of him that you can’t actually say the words: Obama is wrong. But I think we already knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1077 "2014-03-13T13:44:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wow. You are so enamored of him that you can’t actually say the words: Obama is wrong. But I think we already knew that. It’s like a textbook example of cognitive dissonance in action. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1078 "2014-03-13T13:51:25Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > There is no other way for the people of Crimea to have a say in what direction they want to go. You keep saying this as if A, it’s true (it’s not) and B, it’s meaningful (same). > [@](#): > > So you think it was peachy keen for Khrushchev to give Ukraine the ‘gift’ of Crimea that had nothing to do with democracy or self governance. 😛 The irony of this statement is pretty much off the charts. But please, keep that away from me…the smell of where you pulled this out of is quite intense. > [@](#): > > The Western media and Governments have shaded the truth about the 2008 conflict between Russia and Georgia which tells me that we should be aware of the potential problems with the perspective that is being provided to all of us. Uhuh. The old ‘Western media and Governments have shaded the truth’ gambit, ehe? Oh, well played, well played. You’ll have Red eating out of your hand in no time. I wonder how he feels about having you on his ‘side’? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1079 "2014-03-13T13:56:51Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I think Putin sees the **utter lawlessness in the West’s land grab** of The Ukraine as time to concede the politics of Kiev to the West. 1984 called NFBW…they want their plot back. Oh, and they say we have always been at war with Eastasia… (My emphasis to point out the ludicrous) > [@](#): > > Putin does not care as long as his base and the ethnic Russians are protected. And he wants no Ukrainain military assets on the Crimean Peninsula. Crimea has potentential to become a flourishing Indeoendent Nation when its separation from the undemocratic turmoil in Kiev is concluded. :p…:p:p:p You can’t buy comedy this good. > [@](#): > > If it is done without bloodshed more power to them. That should be the standard for the world to recognize. Not the shit that happened in Kiev. So, the standard the world needs to recognize is the naked use of military force by a major regional power to carve off a chunk of another countries territory and cloak it in excuse so lame that only someone fooled by W would swallow them? Yeah, that’s what we should do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1080 "2014-03-13T13:58:39Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Uhuh. The old ‘Western media and Governments have shaded the truth’ gambit, ehe? Oh, well played, well played. Does he realize that Obama is part of that “Western media and Governments” cabal? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=53) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=55)