# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1101 "2014-03-13T17:18:29Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Putin can see the lawless behavior in Kiev leaving a great deal of uncertainty on who is commanding the Ukraine anti aircraft installations on Crimea for example. The uncertainty and illegitimate behavior in Kiev does translate into a threat to the Russian Fleet stationed in Crimea. Putin decides to exercise his right to defend his Fleet in the way he did. In much the same way Bush saw a threat to the US in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1102 "2014-03-13T17:18:45Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Yanukovich was still the acting constitutionally elected president of the Ukraine and had the authority to invite Putin to protect the ethnic Russians in Crimea - a semi-autonomous region of Ukraine. Does he have that authority, or must such a thing pass Ukraine’s parliament? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1103 "2014-03-13T17:27:14Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No, he recognizes the new government of Ukraine as legitimate as a formality of geo-strategic and domestic political necessity. You have a cite for this, I presume? Of course you don’t. It’s yet another instance of you twisting the facts to fit your pre-conceived ideas. Been there, done that. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1104 "2014-03-13T17:46:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wow, you spelled “prerogative” correctly. Don’t let anyone say you can’t learn anything. > > It is not the prerogative of any country to decide on the Constitutionality of any internal action of another country. The only prerogative the country has is to recognize or not recognize the government of another country. But (and note this carefully) whether it recognizes or does not recognize the government of another country as legitimate, invading that country is not its “prerogative”. Get it? I’m saying that the unique legal and constitutional relationship between Crimea as part Ukraine, Russia and The Ukraine mainland establishes criteria that dissolves the general broad principle that you wish to apply to the situation in Crimea. Russia has some legitimate points that would not apply to a land or resource grabbing invasion that has been the norm over the course of human history. Refusal to even consider Russia’s argument on any grounds is not productive. The illegitimacy of the take-over in Kiev is a major issue to the Russian side. We should not deny the importance of it is what Im saying ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1105 "2014-03-13T17:53:34Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If you agree with Putin that the outing of Yanukovich was illegitimate then it must mean two things. Yanukovich was still the acting constitutionally elected president of the Ukraine and had the authority to invite Putin to protect the ethnic Russians in Crimea - a semi-autonomous region of Ukraine. Russia signed a treaty to respect the integrity of the Ukraine. They took over a section and immediately ordered a referendum to break up the Ukraine. They should have used economic and political pressure if they wanted Yanukovich back in power. You really think going for the military option immediately is justified/ethical? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1106 "2014-03-13T17:54:38Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I’m saying that the unique legal and constitutional relationship between Crimea as part Ukraine, Russia and The Ukraine mainland establishes criteria that dissolves the general broad principle that you wish to apply to the situation in Crimea. And we’re saying you’re utterly wrong about this. > [@](#): > > Russia has some legitimate points that would not apply to a land or resource grabbing invasion that has been the norm over the course of human history. That is _highly_ debatable at best. > [@](#): > > Refusal to even consider Russia’s argument on any grounds is not productive. And yet you resolutely refuse to consider any other argument. How productive is that? > [@](#): > > The illegitimacy of the take-over in Kiev is a major issue to the Russian side. So they say. But that does not impart legitimacy to their own actions. > [@](#): > > We should not deny the importance of it is what Im saying I think we all understand the importance of what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1107 "2014-03-13T17:55:56Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Refusal to even consider Russia’s argument on any grounds is not productive. Russia signed multiple treaties with Ukraine promising to respect its territorial integrity. Yes, refusal to consider Russia’s breaking of these treaties as in any way legitimate or understandable is productive. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1108 "2014-03-13T18:10:02Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Yanukovich was still the acting constitutionally elected president of the Ukraine and had the authority to invite Putin to protect the ethnic Russians in Crimea - a semi-autonomous region of Ukraine. To my mind, it is sort of a given that a would-be leader of a country has lost all legitimacy if he asks for a foreign invasion to put him back into power - or supports a foreign nation’s biting off a chunk of his country for their own use. This, irrespective of the constitutional niceties of his ouster. I think the issue you are not grappling with is that all constitutional provisions concerning election and disposition, and democratic forms, do is act as ways to indicate the will of the population as to their government, and so confer legitimacy on that government. Ultimately, they are for the good of the governed, and for the good of the country as a whole. They are not intended as providing a winner-take-all prize on the leader who is elected. The interests protected by democratic forms and constitutions are those of the population, not those of the leader. A leader who is acting as the puppet for a foreign power, let alone inviting it to invade his homeland, has no legitimacy - he is acting directly contrary to the interests of the people he is supposed to be governing. Which, in this case, is more or less why he was ousted in the first place. By running to Russia and supporting a Russian invasion, he has by his acts indicated that his ouster was very probably justified. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1109 "2014-03-13T18:49:48Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Russia signed a treaty to respect the integrity of the Ukraine. They took over a section and immediately ordered a referendum to break up the Ukraine. They should have used economic and political pressure if they wanted Yanukovich back in power. You really think going for the military option immediately is justified/ethical? Whatever treaty you are referring to is, in Putin’s eyes, trumped by the invitation to defend ethnic Russians in Crimea by the only legitimate President of Ukraine who requested it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1110 "2014-03-13T18:54:18Z")
So you think if he was never ousted, it would have been totally fine if Yanukovich as elected leader just gave Crimea to Russia? Or do you think he has different powers now that he is in exile? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1111 "2014-03-13T18:55:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wow, you spelled “prerogative” correctly. Don’t let anyone say you can’t learn anything. > > It is not the prerogative of any country to decide on the Constitutionality of any internal action of another country. The only prerogative the country has is to recognize or not recognize the government of another country. But (and note this carefully) whether it recognizes or does not recognize the government of another country as legitimate, invading that country is not its “prerogative”. Get it? What part of not making any further deprecating comments was so hard to understand? Warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1112 "2014-03-13T19:13:25Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So you think that is ridiculous but can you articulate where and why? You mean like I have in several earlier posts? You want me to do it again? > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW. “I think Putin sees the utter lawlessness in the West’s land grab of The Ukraine as time to concede the politics of Kiev to the West.” > > (Do you disagree that Putin sees it that way?) I don’t give a flying fuck about how Putin sees it. But no, I don’t believe he really sees it that way at all. What he spouts as propaganda for his own populations consumption (and the consumption of the gullible and folks like you) is vastly different from what he really thinks, IMHO. So, to put this back in terms of what you said, and what I’ve already responded to on this subject but what you again chose to either ignore, misread or use to rant off in a new direction, your assertion that Putin thinks that the west is engaged in a land grab and that he’s really just trying to protect the Russian speakers in the Crimea and allow them to live free as a new Russian state is as ludicrous and silly as if you had said the same thing…which, really, you did, since you no more know what Putin REALLY thinks than I do. > [@](#): > > “Putin does not care as long as his base and the ethnic Russians are protected.” > > (What is ridiculous about that assessment? ) > > “And he wants no Ukrainain military assets on the Crimean Peninsula.” > > (Do you think he wants more Ukrainian assets in Crimea?) This is just you trying to spin the discussion basically. I don’t know if you think this tactic works, but I suspect that I’m not the only one rolling my eyes at such a transparent load of horseshit. In short, neither of these have anything to do with the point under discussion, and is the equivalent of some truther saying ‘Well, the sky was blue on 9/11, and President Bush was reading about the goats while his trusted minions were perpetrating the biggest false flag operations in human history!’ ‘Well, are you denying the sky was blue? Do you deny that Bush was reading the goat story to a bunch of kids???’. 😛 > [@](#): > > “Crimea has potentential to become a flourishing Indeoendent Nation when its separation from the undemocratic turmoil in Kiev is concluded.” > > (That’s my opinion - what is ridiculous about that?) The presumption that A, you know anything about it’s potential as a new Russian state, and B, the presumption that they will BE an 'Indeoedent Nation ’ at all, and C the situation in Kiev/Ukraine is as your continued hyperbolic assertions suggest (i.e. your use of ‘undemocratic turmoil’ and repeated use of ‘thugs’, etc). Pretty ridiculous, yes. > [@](#): > > “If it is done without bloodshed more power to them. That should be the standard for the world to recognize. Not the shit that happened in Kiev.”) > > (Really are you in favor of the bloodshed in Kiev that led to this crisis and do you want more? What is ridiculous about seeking peaceful ways to resolve things?) This is what’s commonly refered to as a ‘strawman argument’, and, well, it’s both transparent AND ridiculous. Ok, anything else I can clear up for you while I’m here? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1113 "2014-03-13T20:24:46Z")
XT has just told me that my statement below is “what’s commonly refered to as a ‘strawman argument’”. I wrote. “If it is done without bloodshed more power to them. That should be the standard for the world to recognize. Not the shit that happened in Kiev.” I made that very statement regarding what I think and then asked XT to tell me why he thinks it is ridiculous. Apparently he thinks it is ridiculous because it is a ‘strawman argument’ is all he could come up with. But I don’t see a straw man set up nor do I see one being knocked down. Perhaps it can be pointed out or withdrawn? . ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1114 "2014-03-13T20:31:46Z")
[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] (Really are you in favor of the bloodshed in Kiev that led to this crisis and do you want more? What is ridiculous about seeking peaceful ways to resolve things?) [/QUOTE] Where did I say this? Where did I imply this? Where was this in collision with anything remotely like what I was talking about, what point I was talking too or even in this universe where I live? Do you have a cite of me saying anything like this? No? THEN IT’S A FUCKING STRAWMAN. See how that works? Of course, if you DO have an example of me saying I’m in favor of bloodshed or even discussing bloodshed in Kiev, feel free to post it. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1115 "2014-03-13T20:39:40Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > XTBut I don’t see a straw man set up nor do I see one being knocked down. Perhaps it can be pointed out or withdrawn? You stated he was in favor of the bloodshed in Kiev, though in fact he has never said anything of the sort. You attributed that position to him even though he never held such a position. That is, by definition, a strawman argument. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1116 "2014-03-13T21:32:55Z")
[Russian troops are massing for "intensive training " on Ukraine’s eastern border.](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/14/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1117 "2014-03-13T21:38:43Z")
I had written that “… I think Putin sees the utter lawlessness in the West’s land grab of The Ukraine as time to concede the politics of Kiev to the West.” And then after XT called my viewpoint ridiculous I asked if XT disagreed “… that Putin sees it that way.” And we learn XT’s thoughts on the matter as XT replies that he does not, “give a flying fuck about how Putin sees it.” But then XT goes on to clarify: > [@](#): > > But no, I don’t believe he really sees it that way at all. What he spouts as propaganda for his own populations consumption (and the consumption of the gullible and folks like you) is vastly different from what he really thinks, IMHO. So we could assume that XT is convinced that Putin actually sees that… the utter lawfulness in the West’s support of true democracy in The Ukraine means that it is time to concede the politics of Kiev to the West". And it must be then that XT has acquired verifiable knowledge that Putin has converted his innermost convictions into propaganda in order to fool the gullible that he really believes that “the utter lawlessness in the West’s land grab of The Ukraine means it is time to concede the politics of Kiev to the West.” To think anyone should have the audacity to challenge XT’s most gullible-proof insight. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1118 "2014-03-13T21:49:17Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I’m saying that the unique legal and constitutional relationship between Crimea as part Ukraine, Russia and The Ukraine mainland establishes criteria that dissolves the general broad principle that you wish to apply to the situation in Crimea. And we’re saying you just made that up in order to justify the end you want to achieve. It’s complete bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1119 "2014-03-13T21:54:14Z")
Mr. Moderator, permission to treat the, um, poster as a hostile…er, something. 😛 [QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] And it must be then that XT has acquired verifiable knowledge that Putin has converted his innermost convictions into propaganda in order to fool the gullible that he really believes that “the utter lawlessness in the West’s land grab of The Ukraine means it is time to concede the politics of Kiev to the West.” [/QUOTE] Probably because Putin is neither stupid nor naive, and pretty much knows it’s NOT a western land grab (since, you know, the west hasn’t grabbed a gods damned thing and it’s ridiculous propaganda-esque horseshit to even imply that, especially considering how hinky the Euros are about anything that remotely smacks of that…well, unless it’s the Russians doing it and then only some of the more oddball Euros can convince themselves it’s a good idea). > [@](#): > > To think anyone should have the audacity to challenge XT’s most gullible-proof insight. Oh, I don’t know…maybe someone will at some point. But hopefully whoever does decide to do that will actually be able to read and comprehend what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1120 "2014-03-13T21:55:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You stated he was in favor of the bloodshed in Kiev, though in fact he has never said anything of the sort. You attributed that position to him even though he never held such a position. That is, by definition, a strawman argument. Are you sure I attributed that position to him? I asked a valid question because he has claimed that my original statements were ridiculous. So, If XT thinks my statements are ridiculous it must mean by reason and logic that he thinks the opposite of what I stated is true. So it was fair of me to ask XT if he believed … That is IF … He believes the opposite of my statements is true. Here are my questions: (Really are you in favor of the bloodshed in Kiev that led to this crisis and do you want more? What is ridiculous about seeking peaceful ways to resolve things?) XT is answering no, And I accept that answer because it means XT was wrong in stating that my original statement is ridiculous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=55) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=57)