# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 59
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1161 "2014-03-14T16:11:00Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Do you deny there is a distinct historical border separating Crimea from > Ukraine? Do you deny that some decaffeinated beverages today are just as tasty as the real thing?? Because you didn’t mention that, and I think you are ducking the question. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1162 "2014-03-14T16:29:57Z")
Rah! Rah! Russia! How to make friends and influence [Eastern Europe](http://news.yahoo.com/crimea-wary-eastern-europe-asks-whos-next-133708421.html): > [@](#): > > BUCHAREST, Romania (AP) — Broken promises of help from the West. A tragic history of Russian invasion that goes back centuries. A painful awareness that conflicts in this volatile region are contagious. These are the factors that make nations across Eastern Europe watch events in Ukraine — and tremble. > Related Stories > > From leaders to ordinary people, there is a palpable sense of fear that Russia, seemingly able to thumb its nose at Western powers at will, may seek more opportunities for incursions in its former imperial backyard. The question many people are asking is: Who’s next? > [@](#): > > Specifically, concerns run high that after taking over the strategic peninsula of Crimea, Russian President Vladimir Putin may be tempted to try a land grab in Moldova, where Russian troops are stationed in the breakaway province of Trans-Dniester. It’s one of several “frozen conflicts” across Eastern Europe whose ranks Crimea — many in the West now say with resignation — has joined. > > In Romania, which neighbors predominantly Romanian-speaking Moldova, Monica Nistorescu urged the West to stand up to Putin — lest he come to view himself as unbeatable. > > “The world should stop seeing Putin as the invincible dragon with silver teeth,” said Nistorescu, “because we will succeed in making him believe that Russia is what it once was.” > [@](#): > > Many in the region are keenly aware that Poland had guarantees of military aid from France and Britain against Nazi aggression. But when Hitler invaded in 1939, France and Britain didn’t send troops to Poland despite their declarations of war. That history feeds skepticism that NATO would come to the aid of eastern member nations in the event of a Russian attack. > > “Poland’s history shows that we should not count on others,” novelist Jaroslaw Szulski told The AP. > [@](#): > > Such feelings are particularly acute in the Baltic nations that are members of NATO and the European Union. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania have sizable Russian populations that Moscow periodically declares it needs to “protect” — the key word Putin used in justifying its invasion of Crimea. > > “I’m a bit skeptical,” said Tiina Seeman in Tallinn, Estonia, when asked if she believed the West would come to her nation’s rescue. “I’d like to believe so but I can’t say I trust them 100 percent.” > > Moscow routinely accuses Estonia and Latvia of discriminating against their Russian-speaking minorities. Tensions between Russia and Estonia soared in 2007, when protests by Russian-speakers against the relocation of a Soviet-era war monument ended in street riots. Many Estonians blamed Moscow — which has handed out passports to ethnic Russians in the Baltics — for stirring up the protests. > [@](#): > > Some countries like Poland, which shares a border with both Ukraine and Russia, are already starting to take precautionary measures. Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk has warned that instability in Ukraine may be prolonged and lead Warsaw to upgrade its weapons. At Poland’s request, about 300 U.S. airmen and a dozen F-16 fighters arrived in Poland this week for a military exercise. > > Tusk alluded to Europe’s appeasement of Hitler and Stalin in the 1930s as he warned about the implications of letting Russia get away with its takeover of Crimea. > > “Anyone who believes that peace and stabilization can be bought through concessions is mistaken,” Tusk said last week in parliament. “Europe has made such mistakes, and they always led to a catastrophe.” ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1163 "2014-03-14T16:54:26Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I just read the article you linked. It doesn’t mention the Crimea in that letter. If Putin is reacting to this request, why is he restricting his peacekeepers to the Crimea, especially when the lawlessness that prompted the letter was in Kiev? Putin is reacting to Yanukovich’s request in a way that Putin views his actions in accordance with international law. And according to Lavrov today in London with Kerry Kiev and Southeastern Regions of Ukraine are not in and plans for Russian military involvement or invasion. > [@](#): > > Russia has not and “cannot have” any plans to invade southeastern regions of Ukraine, Lavrov told reporters . [http://rt.com/news/lavrov-kerry-ukraine-talks-890/](http://rt.com/news/lavrov-kerry-ukraine-talks-890/) Y ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1164 "2014-03-14T17:10:14Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Do you deny that some decaffeinated beverages today are just as tasty as the real thing?? Because you didn’t mention that, and I think you are ducking the question. Still have a problem with context I see. The border between Ukraine and Crimea exists and it matters to my response to RickJay. Your hijack matters not one iota. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1165 "2014-03-14T17:58:19Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Oh, God help us, not another red line! > > [John Kerry: Russia has until Monday to reverse course in Ukraine](http://washingtonexaminer.com/john-kerry-russia-has-until-monday-to-reverse-course-in-ukraine/article/2545610) > > Putin must be terrified. And US has until Monday to get lost from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Somali, Palestine, Mali, Ukraine, Georgia, Tajikistan, Libya, Syria, Bahrain, Qatar, Egypt, Sudan, Congo, Africa, Philipine, Japan, Germany, and disassemble her 800+ military bases world-wide. Has Kerry lost his mind? Or is someone else doing it for him? “Diplomacy” cowboy style. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1166 "2014-03-14T18:27:24Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > And US has until Monday to get lost from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Somali, Palestine, Mali, Ukraine, Georgia, Tajikistan, Libya, Syria, Bahrain, Qatar, Egypt, Sudan, Congo,\*\* Africa,\*\* Philipine, Japan, Germany, and disassemble her 800+ military bases world-wide. > > Has Kerry lost his mind? Or is someone else doing it for him? > > “Diplomacy” cowboy style. The fact that you just classed ‘Africa’ as a country pretty much sums up your argument ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1167 "2014-03-14T18:38:29Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > The fact that you just classed ‘Africa’ as a country pretty much sums up your argument Surely you never make a mistake…'cuase obviously, you are perrrrrfect! Congrats. That said, what wrote in my post stands – 'cept for Africa being a country. Because, of course, I didn’t know that. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1168 "2014-03-14T19:31:14Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > And US has until Monday to get lost from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Somali, Palestine, Mali, Ukraine, Georgia, Tajikistan, Libya, Syria, Bahrain, Qatar, Egypt, Sudan, Congo, Africa, Philipine, Japan, Germany, and disassemble her 800+ military bases world-wide. > > Has Kerry lost his mind? Or is someone else doing it for him? > > “Diplomacy” cowboy style. Have the governments of any of those countries demanded we leave? If not, I don’t see why you think those comparisons are relevant. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1169 "2014-03-14T19:35:29Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > And US has until Monday to get lost from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Somali, Palestine, Mali, Ukraine, Georgia, Tajikistan, Libya, Syria, Bahrain, Qatar, Egypt, Sudan, Congo, Africa, Philipine, Japan, Germany, and disassemble her 800+ military bases world-wide. . Umm, how did you come up with that list? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1170 "2014-03-14T19:42:00Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Umm, how did you come up with that list? Does the US have “troops” in Syria, Somalia or “Palestine”? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1171 "2014-03-14T20:25:56Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Still have a problem with context I see. The border between Ukraine and Crimea exists and it matters to my response to RickJay. Your hijack matters not one iota. This has nothing to do with RickJay’s response to you, nor does your off the wall original query concerning a historic border between the Ukraine and Crimea, which is completely irrelevant to the original point…which is why I asked you an equally off the wall question to underscore this. Here, let’s get in the way back machine and take a look at the whole thing, shall we? [QUOTE=RickJay] That isn’t logical at all. I mean, that it quite literally one of the most absurd and simple errors of logic I’ve ever read an adult write in my entire life. “Ridiculous” does not mean “the opposite of.” [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] I wrote that XT must ‘think’ the opposite of what I wrote. That was because XT advised us all that what I wrote was ridiculous. So I asked him in essence if he meant to say it was not ridiculous because I refuse to accept that a sane person preferring a peaceful outcome over the status of Crimea would call my statement ridiculous. Key words there are ‘I asked’ . You transformed that into ‘I stated’, That was wrong as well as ridiculous. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] Putin has not invaded Ukraine. His troops are in Crimea. Following the total collapse of law and the illegal overthrow the Executive Branch in Kiev Crimean Leaders seized control of all its own security and announced it was separating from Ukraine. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=RickJay] At this point your argument has simply lost all coherence. You don’t even agree with yourself anymore. You’re literally saying Russia did not invade Ukraine even though you admit they sent troops into Ukraine, and you’re now saying that Crimea announced it intended to separate from Ukraine before holding a referendum you say is a legitimate one that will decide whether or not they will separate from Ukraine. On top of that, you are, over and over, attributing statements and arguments to other people that they aren’t actually saying. In effect, you’re now arguing with yourself, so have fun with that. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] Do you deny there is a distinct historical border separating Crimea from Ukraine? [/QUOTE] So, you see, your query about whether RickJay denies that there ‘is a distinct historical border separating Crimea from Ukraine?’ is a total non-sequitur. Oh, I’m sure in YOUR head it makes perfect sense and tracks with…well, something. But wrt the discussion it’s totally out of left field. Which is most likely why RickJay didn’t jump in to reply. He probably strained an eye when they were both rolling, since you, once again, didn’t bother replying or responding to what he actually said, but instead steamed on in some bizarre off the wall direction. As usual for any discussion with you. Which is why I’m kicking myself for even attempting to engage you in this thread…hell, by now you’d think I’d know better. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1172 "2014-03-14T20:32:21Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > And US has until Monday to get lost from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Somali, Palestine, Mali, Ukraine, Georgia, Tajikistan, Libya, Syria, Bahrain, Qatar, Egypt, Sudan, Congo, Africa, Philipine, Japan, Germany, and disassemble her 800+ military bases world-wide. > > Has Kerry lost his mind? Or is someone else doing it for him? > > “Diplomacy” cowboy style. I am still ignorant as to why the historic misdeeds of the US excuses Russias current ones. Or is relevant to them. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1173 "2014-03-14T20:50:38Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > I am still ignorant as to why the historic misdeeds of the US excuses Russias current ones. Or is relevant to them. “One should not throw stones out of glass houses.” ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1174 "2014-03-14T21:43:18Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > “One should not throw stones out of glass houses.” I don’t think that is a very functional analogy. Throwing stones in a glass house is always bad, regardless of your previous behavior. Whereas protesting lawless behavior is always good, regardless of previous behavior. If I’ve had a speeding ticket at some point, should I be forever barred from protesting dangerous driving? If I got into a fight once, should I never be allowed to protest about muggers? The notion that previous behavior somehow disqualifies a nation from protesting an armed invasion of another nation is pretty nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1175 "2014-03-14T21:53:35Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > “One should not throw stones out of glass houses.” What exactly do you suggest? That only the leaders of countries that have never done anything wrong can criticise others? Then I have bad news for you. And for the world. It’s a free-for-all. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1176 "2014-03-14T22:16:46Z")
Well, how about [Spain](http://www.thelocal.es/20140305/madrid-backs-sanctions-in-ukraine-crisis)…are they allowed to criticize Russia over this? > [@](#): > > Russia must respect Ukraine borders: Spain > [@](#): > > Spain’s foreign minister on Wednesday urged his Russian counterpart to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity after Russia said it has no authority over pro-Moscow forces that have taken control of the Crimean Peninsula. > [@](#): > > Foreign Minister José Manual García Margallo also stressed the need for dialogue and cooperation during talks with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov in Madrid. > > Spain’s top diplomat recognized Russia’s key role in international affairs and said he hoped “fruitful dialogue” to end the crisis in Ukraine. > > He also reiterated Spain’s backing of EU sanctions, agreed upon during an emergency meeting in Brussels on Wednesday. “We want the situation to calm down and we want a de-escalation,” said Margallo. What about the rest of the EU nations that agreed upon sanctions against Russia if they continue to pursue this policy? Can THEY criticize and take action against Russia over this? Or no? I’m trying to figure out who can say anything. I mean, since Russia’s own past is so pristine wrt to other nations and all, characterized earlier in the post about Eastern European nations reactions to the playful antics of their Russian brethren and sistren… ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1177 "2014-03-14T22:53:18Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > I am still ignorant as to why the historic misdeeds of the US excuses Russias current ones. Or is relevant to them. First you must understand that Putin does not regard Russian activities in Crimea as a misdeed. Therefore to be scolded and perhaps sanctioned by nations including the two main perpetrator nations that invaded Iraq in 2003 as they ended peaceful UN inspections, has to be confounding for the Russians to be hearing. The world did not sanction the US and UK for that atrocity of a misdeed and the Russians are seemingly perplexed at the current double standard. Had the US and UK been punished by now in proportion to the enormous size of the misdeed of ending inspections in order to invade Iraq, then it may be fairer today to call for sanctions on Russia. But we don’t sanction misdeeds of the US and UK. I can understand that the lack of sanctions against the US and UK for violating international law that Killed tens of thousands of innocent human beings means that a major atrocity has in essence been excused. So if it is a case that Russia’s misdeed must be punished, then it is a case that the nations that invaded Iraq should be punished. In the current situation justice is not blind, justice is drugged and addicted to the West. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1178 "2014-03-14T23:10:18Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > What exactly do you suggest? That only the leaders of countries that have never done anything wrong can criticise others? > > Then I have bad news for you. And for the world. It’s a free-for-all. Nations can criticize all they want. But shouldnt sit on some high moral pedestal when they do it when their immediate past has shown no respect for international law and order. Specifically those that recently committe a crime against himanity but beat the rap because there is no one big enough to haul them in for justice to be served. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1179 "2014-03-14T23:19:54Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, how about [Spain](http://www.thelocal.es/20140305/madrid-backs-sanctions-in-ukraine-crisis)…are they allowed to criticize Russia over this?.. Most European nations are lackeys of the US, which surely must come as a huge surprise to you. As for Spain, the ruling PP Party, is fraught with left-overs with neo-nazis from the Franco era. So what else would anyone expect but butt-licking? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1180 "2014-03-14T23:22:56Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Most European nations are lackeys of the US, which surely must come as a huge surprise to you. > > As for Spain, the ruling PP Party, is fraught with left-overs with neo-nazis from the Franco era. > > So what else would anyone expect but butt-licking? Is that a yes, or a no? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=58) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=60)