# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Tags:** ukraine-invasion\
**Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 60

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**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1181 "2014-03-14T23:28:08Z")

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> [@NotfooledbyW](#):
>
> Nations can criticize all they want. But shouldnt sit on some high moral pedestal when they do it when their immediate past has shown no respect for international law and order. Specifically those that recently committe a crime against himanity but beat the rap because there is no one big enough to haul them in for justice to be served.

You know, beyond your initial threads going agape much like a teen Biever fan over Obama & Co, you are making a lot of sense on this issue. Problem is, the SDMB is not exactly a bastion of common sense if the US happens to be involved. So nothing you post is bound to change the America First crowd.

Trust me, I know from experience – look up my posts if you’d like, leading to the Iraq massacre and you’ll see what I mean.

I just do it for the record. And usually I am correct. Don’t rub noses nor gloat afterwards as again, the record speaks for itself.

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**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1182 "2014-03-14T23:28:15Z")

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> [@XT](#):
>
> So, you see, your query about whether RickJay denies that there ‘is a distinct historical border separating Crimea from Ukraine?’ is a total non-sequitur.

When did you become this debate’s umpire?

In that role you ought to know the definition of non-sequitur.

Again I asked a question. I did not make a statement having little or no relevance to what preceded it.

My question had total relevance because I had written this:

“Following the total collapse of law and the illegal overthrow the Executive Branch in Kiev Crimean Leaders seized control of all its own security and announced it was separating from Ukraine.”

The separation is taking place on a historical border. I asked RickJay a question to find out if he was aware of that critical point in my argument.

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**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1183 "2014-03-14T23:40:50Z")

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> [@Human\_Action](#):
>
> Is that a yes, or a no?

Think.

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**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1184 "2014-03-14T23:55:58Z")

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> [@RedFury](#):
>
> Think.

I have no confidence in my ability to decode your implicit message.

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**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1185 "2014-03-15T00:05:45Z")

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[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW]  
When did you become this debate’s umpire?  
[/QUOTE]

I haven’t been, sadly enough. If I WAS the umpire I’d have thrown you out of the game and sent you to the showers by now. Which has nothing to do with me pointing out, once again, how you go off on tangents and are seemingly talking to yourself in many of these threads. But take heart! Red is prepared to stand shoulder to shoulder with you despite the rabid American partisans on this board shouting USA! USA! USA! So, buck up little cow poke…you have an ally at last!

> [@](#):
>
> In that role you ought to know the definition of non-sequitur.

In the role of ‘someone who can read’ I can certainly both see and define one, yes.

> [@](#):
>
> Again I asked a question. I did not make a statement having little or no relevance to what preceded it.

You asked a question that was a total non-sequitur, yes. Which I pointed out. Yeah, I got all of that. I don’t think YOU did, but then, you never do seem to understand what others write…or, often, what you write either.

> [@](#):
>
> “Following the total collapse of law and the illegal overthrow the Executive Branch in Kiev Crimean Leaders seized control of all its own security and announced it was separating from Ukraine.”

Yes, I’m aware of your thoughts on this as well. You feel that the overthrow of the government was ‘illegal’ (despite having the majority of their parliament involved and endorse what happened), thus making anything that either Russia or elements in the Crimea want to do perfectly peachy. You also feel that, because he was deposed, the former president of the Ukraine gets extra legal powers such as the ability to unilaterally invite in a foreign power to basically invade and carve off parts of his former kingdom…er, I mean country.

> [@](#):
>
> The separation is taking place on a historical border. I asked RickJay a question to find out if he was aware of that critical point in my argument.

Which you brought up out of the blue, and basically is just one more example of you trying to hand wave the actions of the Crimea and Russia to justify, ex post facto the land grab. Yeah, got that too.

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**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1186 "2014-03-15T00:07:31Z")

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> [@Human\_Action](#):
>
> I have no confidence in my ability to decode your implicit message.

Plain enough, hardly encrypted.

_:::shrug::::_

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**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1187 "2014-03-15T00:09:09Z")

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> [@RedFury](#):
>
> Plain enough, hardly encrypted.
> 
> _:::shrug::::_

You should have used :::hand wave::: instead. Much more appropriate. Hows it coming on those post numbers where I was doing the Rah! Rah! USA! thingy? Almost ready to spring that on me?

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**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1188 "2014-03-15T00:10:55Z")

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> [@XT](#):
>
> I haven’t been, sadly enough. If I WAS the umpire I’d have thrown you out of the game and sent you to the showers by now. Which has nothing to do with me pointing out, once again, how you go off on tangents and are seemingly talking to yourself in many of these threads. But take heart! Red is prepared to stand shoulder to shoulder with you despite the rabid American partisans on this board shouting USA! USA! USA! So, buck up little cow poke…you have an ally at last!..

Other than a rant and an indirect ad-hom @ me, WTF is your point?

Ban all those who disagree with The Mighty XT?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1189 "2014-03-15T00:13:37Z")

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> [@RedFury](#):
>
> Other than a rant and an indirect ad-hom @ me, WTF is your point?
> 
> Ban all those who disagree with The Mighty XT?

So, is that a ‘no’ or another :::hand wave:::?

(My point, of course, is that you claimed I did this, now you are apparently weaseling about it, so just want to make sure we are all on the same page. Tell you what, though, Red…can you show ANY Rah! Rah! USA! USA! USA! type stuff in this thread? I mean, you’ve stated that it’s here, and that you’ve been oppressed by it, so…well, where is it?)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1190 "2014-03-15T00:22:37Z")

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Some facts that may reach some of the most biased American apologists. Though, as always, I doubt it.

[**WikiLeaks, Ukraine, and NATO**](http://original.antiwar.com/hallinan/2014/03/13/wikileaks-ukraine-and-nato/)

> [@](#):
>
> Is the Russian occupation of the Crimea a case of aggressive expansionism by Moscow or aimed at at blocking a scheme by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) to roll right up to the Russia’s western border?\*\* WikiLeaks has revealed a secret cable describing a meeting between French and American diplomats that suggests the latter, a plan that has been in the works since at least 2009.
> 
> Titled “A/S Gordon’s meeting with policy makers in Paris,” the cable summarizes a Sept. 16, 2009 get-together between Philip Gordon, then assistant U.S. Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs, and French diplomats Jean-David Levitte, Damien Loras, and Francois Richier. Gordon is currently a special assistant to President Obama on the Middle East.
> 
> While the bulk of the cable covers an exchange of views concerning Iran, the second to last item is entitled “NATO’s enlargement and strategic concept.” At this point Levitte, former French ambassador to the US from 2002 to 2007, interjects that “[French] President [Nicholas] Sarkozy was ‘convinced’ that Ukraine would one day be a member of NATO, but that there was no point in rushing the process and antagonizing Russia, particularly if the Ukrainian public was largely against membership.” Gordon goes on to paraphrase Levitte’s opinion that, “the Bucharest summit declaration was very clear that NATO had an open door and Ukraine and Georgia have a vocation in NATO.”\*\*
> 
> Levitte is currently a fellow at the conservative Brookings Institute.
> 
> At the April 2008 NATO summit in Romania, Croatia and Albania were asked to join – they did so in 2009 – and postponed a decision concerning Georgia and Ukraine until December 2008. But in August, Georgian forces attacked the breakaway province of South Ossetia – possibly under the delusion that NATO would come to their aid – setting off a short and disastrous war with Russia. The vote on Georgia and Ukraine was shelved both by that war and a Gallup Poll indicating that 40 percent of Ukrainians considered NATO a threat, while only 17 percent had a favorable view of the alliance.
> 
> \*\*The move by NATO to extend the alliance to the Russian border is a controversial one that violates the spirit, if not the letter, of a February 1990 agreement between then Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev, US Secretary of State James Baker, and Chancellor Helmut Kohl of Germany.  
> \*\*  
> The issue at the time was Germany and NATO. Under the treaty ending World War II, the Soviets had a right to keep troops in Eastern Germany. The US and the Germans were trying to negotiate a reunion of the two Germanys that would remove the 380,000 Soviet troops in the East, while maintaining US and NATO forces in the West.
> 
> **The Russians were willing to exit their troops, but only if US and NATO forces did not fill the vacuum. On Feb. 9, Gorbachev told Baker “any extension of the zone of NATO would be unacceptable.” Baker assured him that “NATO’s jurisdiction would not shift one inch eastward.”**
> 
> The Baker-Gorbachev meeting was followed the next day by a meeting between Gorbachev and West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl, who assured the Soviet leader that “naturally NATO could not expand its territory” into East Germany. **And, in a parallel meeting between West German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher and Soviet Foreign Minister Eduard Shevardnadze, Genscher told Shevardnadze “for us, it stands firm: NATO will not expand to the East.”**
> 
> But none of the assurances were put in writing and, as the Soviet Union began to implode, the agreement was ignored and NATO forces moved into the old East Germany. Despite Russian President Boris Yeltsin’s complaint that NATO’s eastward march “violated the spirit” of the agreement, Russia was in no position to do anything about it.
> 
> **As former New Republic editor Peter Beinart notes in The Atlantic, the decision to expand NATO was considered to be “recklessly provocative” by a number of foreign policy experts. “As eminent Cold War historian John Lewis wrote, “Historians – normally so contentious – are in uncharacteristic agreement: with remarkably few exceptions, they see NATO enlargement as ill-considered, ill-timed, and above all ill-suited to the realities of the post-Cold War world.”…**

Are the good guys wearing Cowboy hats? Hardly think so. I don’t see any.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1191 "2014-03-15T00:27:00Z")

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> [@RedFury](#):
>
> Plain enough, hardly encrypted.
> 
> _:::shrug::::_

Well, I tried. Moving on.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1192 "2014-03-15T00:37:25Z")

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> [@XT](#):
>
> You should have used :::hand wave::: instead. Much more appropriate. Hows it coming on those post numbers where I was doing the Rah! Rah! USA! thingy? Almost ready to spring that on me?

No worries. Read each and everyone of them. Don’t feel like an XT “post vomit” is necessary. You’ve made your stand quite clear.

Enjoy your evening.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1193 "2014-03-15T00:38:08Z")

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Strange how all those countries who were under Soviet domination rushed to join the “bad guys” in cowboy hats.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1194 "2014-03-15T00:39:16Z")

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> [@RedFury](#):
>
> Some facts that may reach some of the most biased American apologists. Though, as always, I doubt it.
> 
> [**WikiLeaks, Ukraine, and NATO**](http://original.antiwar.com/hallinan/2014/03/13/wikileaks-ukraine-and-nato/)
> 
> Are the good guys wearing Cowboy hats? Hardly think so. I don’t see any.

Um…ok. So, in summary, a French diplomat and an assistant US Sec State (who is now a special assistant in the Middle East) met and discussed (in 2009) a plan to possibly bring the Ukraine into NATO, but that they didn’t want to rush this because it would antagonize Russia (they apparently waited 5 years to spring their nefarious trap), but that NATO would welcome the Ukraine in when and if they ever got around to joining. Ok, I’ll buy that this discussion happened and that the last item under discussion (after they talked mainly about Iran). So what?

Anyway, it goes on to talk (speculatively) about how Georgia was tricked into attacking South Ossetia under the presumption that NATO would come to their aide (I mean, does this even make sense to you, Red? And note, that this is pure speculation on the authors part at this point, the meat of this being the leak where the last item under discussion was…well, pretty weak and obviously an afterthought in the discussion). Oh, and how we forced East Germany into NATO and reneged on our deal with the Soviets (who didn’t exist anymore, having folded their hand)…or something (whoa).

Can you translate what point you think this all makes? I assume it has something to do with a justification for Putin and Russia’s actions in the Crimea and the blockade of Ukrainian facilities and such (and why it’s cool that Russia is ACTUALLY reneging on their own promises and treaty concerning the Ukraine, signed with the US, UK and others in exchange for the Ukraine signing the NNTP…bad move, obviously, on their part, ehe?). And it shows that the US and France…um, talked about some stuff in 2009. I know I’m a USA cheerleader and all, but really…this seems kind of weak to me. What does it tell you, Red? I mean, you obviously thought this was going to demonstrate something…could you elaborate on your drive by link?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1195 "2014-03-15T00:41:15Z")

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> [@RedFury](#):
>
> No worries. Read each and everyone of them. Don’t feel like an XT “post vomit” is necessary. You’ve made your stand quite clear.
> 
> Enjoy your evening.

So, that would be a ‘no’ then. Well, glad we cleared that up, Red. Have a fabulous evening yourself…and I really mean that.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1196 "2014-03-15T00:47:38Z")

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> [@XT](#):
>
> You asked a question that was a total non-sequitur, yes.

{\*\*\* “non-sequitur.” [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) Unabridged. Random House, Inc. 14 Mar. 2014. \<Dictionary.com [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/non-sequitur&gt;](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/non-sequitur&gt;).

\*non se·qui·tur noun 1. Logic. an inference or a conclusion that does not follow from the premises. 2. a statement containing an illogical conclusion.

1. a statement having little or no relevance to what preceded it 2. logic a conclusion that does not follow from the premises. \* \*\*\*}

My legitimate question was addressed to Rickjay in order to get information in reply. This is supposedly a debate forum. Bit, if some random observer can at anytime come in and interrupt a debate because he/she has an opinion that a relevant question in the debate does not follow in accordance with the debate - then there can be no debate.

Is that your role XT. Stifling open and free debate? If Rickjay can’t answer my question himself then that is his problem and I will keep it in mind.

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**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1197 "2014-03-15T00:59:40Z")

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[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW]  
Is that your role XT. Stifling open and free debate? If Rickjay can’t answer my question himself then that is his problem and I will keep it in mind.  
[/QUOTE]

I’ve been attributed vast and awesome powers in this thread. I have to admit, I’m a bit bemused at this point where all of this is coming from. However, far be it from me to stifle open and free debate by making my observations and quoting actual posts AND actually making comments that are in the same universe as what the poster wrote. 😛

Oh, and my thanks for looking up and posting the definition of non-sequitur. Now we all know what it means. Appreciate that.

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**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1198 "2014-03-15T01:34:19Z")

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> [@XT](#):
>
> So, that would be a ‘no’ then. Well, glad we cleared that up, Red. Have a fabulous evening yourself…and I really mean that.

As do I. Though if time allows, wipe your star-spangled blinders.

Niters.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1199 "2014-03-15T01:38:16Z")

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> [@XT](#):
>
> Um…ok. So, in summary, a French diplomat and an assistant US Sec State (who is now a special assistant in the Middle East) met and discussed (in 2009) a plan to possibly bring the Ukraine into NATO, but that they didn’t want to rush this because it would antagonize Russia (they apparently waited 5 years to spring their nefarious trap), but that NATO would welcome the Ukraine in when and if they ever got around to joining. Ok, I’ll buy that this discussion happened and that the last item under discussion (after they talked mainly about Iran). So what?
> 
> Anyway, it goes on to talk (speculatively) about how Georgia was tricked into attacking South Ossetia under the presumption that NATO would come to their aide (I mean, does this even make sense to you, Red? And note, that this is pure speculation on the authors part at this point, the meat of this being the leak where the last item under discussion was…well, pretty weak and obviously an afterthought in the discussion). Oh, and how we forced East Germany into NATO and reneged on our deal with the Soviets (who didn’t exist anymore, having folded their hand)…or something (whoa).
> 
> Can you translate what point you think this all makes? I assume it has something to do with a justification for Putin and Russia’s actions in the Crimea and the blockade of Ukrainian facilities and such (and why it’s cool that Russia is ACTUALLY reneging on their own promises and treaty concerning the Ukraine, signed with the US, UK and others in exchange for the Ukraine signing the NNTP…bad move, obviously, on their part, ehe?). And it shows that the US and France…um, talked about some stuff in 2009. I know I’m a USA cheerleader and all, but really…this seems kind of weak to me. What does it tell you, Red? I mean, you obviously thought this was going to demonstrate something…could you elaborate on your drive by link?

Might as well make it short and to the point, since your comprehensive abilities of the quote in question seem to be lacking.

> [@](#):
>
> **…As former New Republic editor Peter Beinart notes in The Atlantic, the decision to expand NATO was considered to be “recklessly provocative” by a number of foreign policy experts. “As eminent Cold War historian John Lewis wrote, “Historians – normally so contentious – are in uncharacteristic agreement: with remarkably few exceptions, they see NATO enlargement as ill-considered, ill-timed, and above all ill-suited to the realities of the post-Cold War world.”…**

Spin away.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1200 "2014-03-15T04:01:32Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> XT 03-14-2014 08:59 PM However, far be it from me to stifle open and free debate by making my observations and quoting actual posts AND actually making comments that are in the same universe as what the poster wrote. \<

Do you know how many times the topic of the historical border of Crimea has been brought up on this thread before you came in with your inane observation and time wasting comment that asking a question about the historical borders of Crimea is a non-sequitor?  
Here’s just one of the many: On 03-07-2014 at 03:11 AM I wrote, “Are we talking about when the **internationally recognized borders of Crimea were set**? I don’t see where Crimea was given a vote to separate themselves from the Ukraine? The Ukraine government always had constitutional authority over Crimea since the time that Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine. Where did Crimea have a vote to separate from the Ukraine’s sovereignty?”  
And the Crimean Border arrangement has been part of this debate going back a couple of weeks. On 03-01-2014 at 12:03 PM Martin Hyde wrote, “I actually think Ukraine probably was untenable with its current borders, the same way Czechoslovakia didn’t really need to be one country but Ukraine obviously was heading for a more troubling divorce. Crimea is very heavily Russian, and \*\*really only became part of Ukraine due to internal border redrawings in the 1950s within the Soviet Empire. \*\*It’s historically part of Russia and is a genuine Russian area similar to Kaliningrad.”

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