# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 62
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1221 "2014-03-15T15:15:06Z")
I love how you make massive off topic posts then declare it the end of off topic. Twice now on this page. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1222 "2014-03-15T15:22:12Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I love how you make massive off topic posts then declare it the end of off topic. Twice now on this page. If I respond to your post I would be off-topic as well. So I won’t. As I said, I’m done with off-topic replies. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1223 "2014-03-15T15:34:29Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Watch Gallardon praise Franquismo: [**Gallardón ensalza el franquismo**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JoOho4YL_o) Have you… like… _watched_ that video? You do realise that Gallardón does not mention Franco’s name once? And that he actually criticises the lack of political liberties in Spain during the 1960s and 1970s? That video is poor evidence of the ‘neo-nazis’ that control the Partido Popular. Just like pretty much everything you’ve cited in this thread is poor evidence for your arguments. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1224 "2014-03-15T15:35:27Z")
Franco wasn’t so bad. And now, good day sir. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1225 "2014-03-15T15:49:17Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Franco wasn’t so bad. And now, good day sir. Is he still dead? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1226 "2014-03-15T15:53:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why should “The West” try and influence an illegal referendum? That would give it legitimacy. They start by acknowledging the illegal means a new anti-Russian Kiev government took power. It’s not two wrongs don’t make a right when the ‘wrong’ inflicted on the ethnic Russian minority in Ukraine were not protected of their right to elect their leaders and keep them in office unless removed legally. The riot mobs in Kiev being the majority got their way with lawlessness to overthrow the government,and they can handle the wreckage of all that as they see fit to go there lawless ways. But they need to cease the Polly-Annish bullcrap that they are lovers of democracy and freedom fighters and that ethnic Russians must remain part of their whore driven lawlessness. In other words Kiev does whatever they want with their lawless ways except rounding up ethnic Russians and harming them if in the future chaos and disorder spreads on the Ukraine side of the border with Crimea. If Crimeans vote to join Russia that does recognized by the West or not it means the West loses the propaganda war on the referendum’s unlawfulness because they are standing firm with the bloody unlawfulness that drove Crimeans to act as they have That could be why the our President acknowledged in front of 1/2 President Yatz… That Crimea will not return to Pre-February status with Ukraine. We will see that play out no matter how the Referendum goes. It’s the lawlessness in Kiev that Kiev brought on themselves making it pro ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1227 "2014-03-15T16:29:31Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The West responds by jumping up and down and throwing around condemnations and other useless stuff. > > The West should have responded by inserting itself in the referendum process in a positive way, working with the Russian to push it towards a as fair and representative referendum as possible. By having pushed it a little further into the future, etc. A referendum by itself ought never to be a controversial issue. Of course they can vote on their own future. And by all accounts, a majority of Crimeans would rather be part of Russia, so they should naturally be allowed to chose that path if they wish. Ukraine will be stronger for having shed parts of the nation which wish no part of it. You are correct. Good unbiased observation. Without the Crimean military and security forces that were formed and in place to enable the Crimean Parliament to vote for independence and to have a referendum to separate from the Ukraine it would have been Ukrainian guns arresting those PMs right off the bat and I suggest things could have gotten real ugly real fast because of the back and forth rumors about fascists taking over Kiev at that time. There was a circle of Ukrainian Police surrounding Crimea’s government buildings when Yanukovich was overthrown in Kiev. They all withdrew and melted away quickly and have been replaced by Russian Cossacks living the dream right now… That withdrawal by Ukrainian police was a wise and violence saving thing to do. It was from that point in time that Crimea’s Declaration of Independence began. It was truly the non-shot not heard around the world yet. But it will be heard, it will be heard. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1228 "2014-03-15T16:34:20Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Have you… like… _watched_ that video? You do realise that Gallardón does not mention Franco’s name once? And that he actually criticises the lack of political liberties in Spain during the 1960s and 1970s? That video is poor evidence of the ‘neo-nazis’ that control the Partido Popular. Just like pretty much everything you’ve cited in this thread is poor evidence for your arguments. > [@CarnalK](#): > > Franco wasn’t so bad. And now, good day sir. OK. Have a lovely weekend the two of you. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1229 "2014-03-15T16:38:09Z")
The UN Security Council has voted on[a resolution](https://www.dropbox.com/s/argawh8ctrfogiu/Ukraine%20UNSCR-draft-inblue.pdf)denying the legitimacy of the Crimean referendum. China abstained and Russia vetoed it, but the remaining 13 states (USA, UK, France, Chile, Argentina, Australia, Rwanda, Luxembourg, South Korea, Lithuania, Jordan, Nigeria and Chad) have voted in favour. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1230 "2014-03-15T16:40:14Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Ignoring the whole to attack a minor part is an issue in message-board debate, certainly. That said, I don’t know that I have the energy for a crusade. > > Anyway, just trying to help with another issue that’s caused communication problems a few times, in relation to your posts. ‘Advice is one thing that is freely given away, but watch that you only take what is worth having.’ Perhaps you can see the method to my madness. I can find who are actually serious about engaging in spirited meaningful debate by seeing if they reading my comments for meaningful argument or skimming to play off the track games. ---
**Author:** ![Anondragon2012](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anondragon2012](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anondragon2012)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1231 "2014-03-15T17:02:13Z")
What this crisis has shown is that the USA is powerless on the Eurasian continent. It has also shown that West Europe is definitely second-rate and passé compared to Russia and its assertion of power. Really its the cold war extended, except the USA isn’t there to re-arm the Germans and conduct drills along the East Bloc borders. Essentially, the Russians cleaned house in 1990 and rebuilt a better USSR. Now that they’ve done this they are conducting traditional Russian geopolitics of establishing dominion over what the Germans call “MITTELEUROPA” (the pre-1945 Germans and Russians believed control over the center-point of the European landmass meant ultimate control as it meant total economic and military autarky. An interesting concept) What is the future of this? - Russian domination (cultural and energy/economic) over Eurasian continent. - EU and West Europe decline further and become more dependent on Russia. - **Major confrontation between USA, Russia, etc will happen in Pacific/Asia through USA Satellite pawns such as Japan. Europe has been played and is over.** ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1232 "2014-03-15T17:04:22Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > The UN Security Council has voted on[a resolution](https://www.dropbox.com/s/argawh8ctrfogiu/Ukraine%20UNSCR-draft-inblue.pdf)denying the legitimacy of the Crimean referendum. China abstained and Russia vetoed it, but the remaining 13 states (USA, UK, France, Chile, Argentina, Australia, Rwanda, Luxembourg, South Korea, Lithuania, Jordan, Nigeria and Chad) have voted in favour. As it never happened due to the Russian veto. See endless sanctions vs Israel vetoed by the USA. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1233 "2014-03-15T17:09:46Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > The UN Security Council has voted on[a resolution](https://www.dropbox.com/s/argawh8ctrfogiu/Ukraine%20UNSCR-draft-inblue.pdf)denying the legitimacy of the Crimean referendum. China abstained and Russia vetoed it, but the remaining 13 states (USA, UK, France, Chile, Argentina, Australia, Rwanda, Luxembourg, South Korea, Lithuania, Jordan, Nigeria and Chad) have voted in favour. As we have always known they would. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1234 "2014-03-15T17:10:51Z")
Once again, Kucinich nails it: [**Dennis Kucinich Blames US Meddling for Russian Invasion**](http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/russia-ukraine-covert-operations-Dennis-Kuchinich/2014/03/04/id/556082/) > [@](#): > > **Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was spurred by U.S. behind-the-scenes actions, says former Ohio congressman and Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich.** > > Fox News host Bill O’Reilly on Tuesday accused Kucinich of being a pacifist because of his opposition to the Iraq war, and Kucinich countered that war is wrong but not all U.S. military action is so. > > O’Reilly then asked how Kucinich would have handled the Ukraine crisis had he been president. > > \*\*“What I’d do is not have USAID and the National Endowment for Democracy working with U.S. taxpayers’ money to knock off an elected government in Ukraine, which is what they did,” Kucinich answered. “I wouldn’t try to force the people of Ukraine into a deal with NATO against their interest or into a deal with the European Union, which is against their economic interest.” > > “So, it’s the USA’s fault that Putin rolled in? We made them do it?” O’Reilly asked. > > “Bill O’Reilly, if you don’t believe in cause and effect, I don’t know what I can do for you,” Kucinich responded.\*\* > > Kucinich said the United States has been involved covertly and behind the scenes with the CIA and two government foreign aid groups, the National Endowment for Democracy and the United States Agency for International Development, to “stir up trouble in Ukraine.” > > **He didn’t specify what the groups had done, but said the democracy endowment had sponsored 65 programs.** He said the United States should stay out of Ukraine’s affairs and let its people decide their future without outside interference. > > As a result, “you’ve got neo-Nazis that are in control,” Kucinich said. He was referring to a statement by Russia’s U.N. ambassador in which he called pro-European Ukrainians “anti-Semites and fascists,” a claim disputed by many, including CNN’s Christiane Amanpour. > > O’Reilly was having none of it. > > \*\*“From what I’m hearing, you’re blaming the USA for subverting Ukraine in the first place, thereby giving Putin a pass to go in and invade,” he told Kucinich. > > “That’s close,” Kucinich answered. “We should be concerned about the Ukrainian people, because they’re being used right now. They would be used by the IMF in a new austerity program, by NATO to go on the doorstep of Russia.”\*\* – more at source. ETA: Video: [**Dennis Kucinich about US involvement in Ukraine**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKqPwGTjDlY) ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1235 "2014-03-15T17:23:02Z")
> [@Anondragon2012](#): > > What this crisis has shown is that the USA is powerless on the Eurasian continent. > It has also shown that West Europe is definitely second-rate and passé compared to Russia and its assertion of power. I would agree on your first statement, completely dis-agree on the second. Look at a map of Europe. The East-West border has moved 1000km east since the collapse of the Soviet Union, and that is precisely because Western Europe is much stronger compared to Russia. The fact that the Europe-Russia confrontation is taking place in eastern Ukraine and not in Germany shows how far Europe has gone. Ukraine may well be the limit of Europe’s power though. > [@RedFury](#): > > As it never happened due to the Russian veto. > > See endless sanctions vs Israel vetoed by the USA. Exactly where I wanted to get. The Crimean situation has put Russia in a situation similar to the criminal state of Israel’s: alone in the Security Council with almost all other countries criticising its actions. The veto will save Moscow’s ass (that what it’s for) but the vote shows the disconnect between Putin’s actions and the opinion of the rest of the world’s leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1236 "2014-03-15T17:32:20Z")
I think it’s quite telling that China abstained. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1237 "2014-03-15T18:01:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I think it’s quite telling that China abstained. Indeed. As always they (China) are playing their cards close to the vest, but if/when push comes to shove, I think it’s pretty clear which side they’ll fall on: [**China warns EU against Russia sanctions**](http://euobserver.com/tickers/123468) > [@](#): > > China’s ambassador to Germany, Shi Mingde, has told Reuters the EU should not impose sanctions on Russia. “We don’t see any point in sanctions … Sanctions could lead to retaliatory action, and that would trigger a spiral with unforeseeable consequences. We don’t want this,” Shi said. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1238 "2014-03-15T18:01:43Z")
> [@](#): > > KHARKOV, March 15, 8:05 /ITAR-TASS/. The operation to detain militants from the Right Sector radical Ukrainian organization, who opened fire and took hostages in the southern Ukrainian city of Kharkov, has been completed, the interior minister of the Kharkov Region, Anatoly Dmitriyev, said Saturday. > > “Some 30 people have been detained. We are now counting the exact number. We will now establish their identities: they have no passports. We will take fingerprints from weapons that remain in the building,” Dmitriyev told an Itar-Tass correspondent. > Two killed, two injured in Kharkov clashes - mayor > Kharkov mayor Gennady Kernes said earlier Saturday that two people had been killed and another two injured in clashes between Kharkov residents and Right Sector militants. > > Reports said people inside the building hosting the Right Sector headquarters with some 40 radicals inside had opened fire and thrown stun grenades and Molotov cocktails from the building’s windows. > > One hostage has been released after talks with militants. Two hostages, one of them a police officer, remain in the building. Kernes is expected to make a statement on the situation soon. > > Right Sector activists were reportedly involved in clashes with police in Ukraine’s anti-government protests that eventually led to a coup in the country in February. [http://en.itar-tass.com/world/723658](http://en.itar-tass.com/world/723658) It is good see the Urkaine’s police arresting these fascists. How many more are there? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1239 "2014-03-15T18:04:35Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > …Exactly where I wanted to get. The Crimean situation has put Russia in a situation similar to the criminal state of Israel’s: alone in the Security Council with almost all other countries criticising its actions. The veto will save Moscow’s ass (that what it’s for) but the vote shows the disconnect between Putin’s actions and the opinion of the rest of the world’s leaders. Suggestion: not a good idea to bring-up Israel in a negative light in this MB. You’ll soon learn as much – the hard way. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1240 "2014-03-15T18:24:25Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Protesting lawless behaviour s only good when the laws are good and just. Whereas breaking bad laws - that is laws that are not wanted by the people - is neutral at worst. So…you are saying that laws against nations invading other nations are bad? I don’t think you’ll find many people who agree outside of warlords-rules areas of Africa, or the dark ages. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=61) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=63)