# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 66
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1301 "2014-03-16T08:07:37Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Surely the presence of Russian troops on the ground will make Crimeans realise how wonderful their neighbour is :rolleyes: I know. The only question is, will Putin be satisfied with making the result 60% or so, or will he go for broke and make it a Soviet-style 90%? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1302 "2014-03-16T08:23:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Nah, I emailed Tel Aviv and told them to put out the word to let him off the hook. We’re taking it under consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_Merton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Frank\_Merton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_Merton)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1303 "2014-03-16T08:30:12Z")
Russia has already made a generational enemy out of Georgia; I suppose Georgia is small and doesn’t much matter. Now they are making a similar near-permanent enemy of Ukraine, a much larger country. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1304 "2014-03-16T08:53:34Z")
> [@Frank\_Merton](#): > > Russia has already made a generational enemy out of Georgia; I suppose Georgia is small and doesn’t much matter. Now they are making a similar near-permanent enemy of Ukraine, a much larger country. You can go down a street or public market in Kiev and see Ukrainian right wing nationalists dressed in full Nazi regalia. I’ve seen this on plenty of occasions. This is not something new, supposedly they’re more plentiful in western parts where I’ve not been. These people have always hated Russia and Russians, and have tried to stir up ethnic hatred. Not to much success. Incidentally, they generally hate Western Europe and the USA about equally as much as they hate Russian. You think you can work with them and control them? You cannot. They’ll bite your hand. The vast majority of Russians and Ukrainians in Ukraine does not hate each other (how could they, they’re married and in family left and right) and will not be overly troubled by this once the dust settles. Ukrainians will be happy to continue to have vacations in Russian Crimea like nothing much changed, ad like they’re happy that they can travel and work in Russia without much visa hassle. Unlike Western Europe where a common Ukrainian has to jump through hoops and perform magic tricks to get a Schengen visa. Your friends are known by the smallest things – like who’ll invite you to your home. The generational hatred is all in the American mind. Or are you being ironic, isn’t it a phrase from the movie Avatar? ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1305 "2014-03-16T09:26:42Z")
I think **Frank Merton’s** point is very valid. It’s fair to assume that Crimea is one of the most pro-Russian regions in Ukraine. If the annexation goes ahead, then the proportion of pro-Europeans in Ukraine will naturally increase. Putin may take Crimea, but in doing so he’s lowering his chances of controlling Ukraine in the long-term ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1306 "2014-03-16T11:06:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > By the way, here is a poll done in 2012: > > [http://crimeantatars.org/article/fewer-and-fewer-crimean-people-want-to-see-the-crimean-peninsula-as-part-of-rus](http://crimeantatars.org/article/fewer-and-fewer-crimean-people-want-to-see-the-crimean-peninsula-as-part-of-rus) > > For the first time within 21 years of independence the quantity of Crimean people who want to see the peninsula autonomy as part of Ukraine made 40% and exceeded the number of those who want to see Crimea a Russian autonomous unit (38%). Thus, compared with June 2011, the share of supporters of the autonomous status of Crimea as part of Russian Federation decreased by 15% (to 38%) in favor of supporters of the Crimean autonomy as part of Ukraine, the number of which has increased by 14% (to 40%). That poll does not offer the choice of returning to the 1992 Crimea Constitution which allows the Crimea legislature an opportunity to decide Crimea’s alignment with whatever nation it decides as a matter of self determination. > [@](#): > > Regionally, Crimea has a long and complex history whose demographics have undergone dramatic changes. The referendum will ask the people of these regions whether they want to join Russia as a federal subject, or if they want to restore the 1992 Crimean constitution which, according to analysts cited by Reuters, “only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control” since the 1992 constitution gives the Crimean assembly powers to choose relations with whom it wants and the assembly has already stated it wants to return Crimea to Russia.[2] The available choices do not include keeping status quo as a part of the Ukraine. Regardless of this, media outlets expect the choice to join Russia to be declared as winner under questionable > **[2014 Crimean status referendum](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum,_2014)** > > The Crimean status referendum of 2014 was a disputed referendum on March 16, 2014, concerning the status of Crimea that was conducted in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the city of Sevastopol (both subdivisions of Ukraine) after Russian forces seized control of Crimea. > The referendum was held amidst Russia's annexation of Crimea. The referendum asked voters whether they wanted to rejoin Russia as a federal subject, or if they wanted to restore the 1992 Crimean constitution and Crimea's ... Plus now that a path to becoming part of Russia has been created in Moscow it makes the choice to join Russia as a much more plausible reality. That has to be considered in the polling. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1307 "2014-03-16T12:03:00Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That poll does not offer the choice of returning to the 1992 Crimea Constitution which allows the Crimea legislature an opportunity to decide Crimea’s alignment with whatever nation it decides as a matter of self determination. Just like today’s referendum doesn’t offer the choice of leaving things as they are. Which is why both poll and referendum should be regarded as useless ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1308 "2014-03-16T12:58:42Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Just like today’s referendum doesn’t offer the choice of leaving things as they are. Which is why both poll and referendum should be regarded as useless As Crimea’s Declaration of Independence from Ukraine it is not at all useless. Obama has relayed to the universe that Crimea is not going back to the status quo and that is whether not this referendum is stopped as the west has been trying to get Putin to do. Crimea has declared independence and the only ways to stop it from becoming a reality is to for Ukraine to take Crimea back by military force or by negotiating some type of new conditions. Since force appears to be out of the question the West’s client in this regard is in a tremendously weak negotiating position. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1309 "2014-03-16T13:42:06Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > As Crimea’s Declaration of Independence from Ukraine it is not at all useless. Maybe it’s worse than useless. Without a “status quo” option the referendum is a fraud. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1310 "2014-03-16T14:30:19Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Maybe it’s worse than useless. Without a “status quo” option the referendum is a fraud. It is not a fraud that the Crimean Parliament has declared independence from Ukraine and they are willing to fight to get it and keep it. When the last of the Ukraine’s army we all should be hoping comes to pass and leaves the peninsula, then the independence to make its own decisions comes to pass. The celebrations have begun with the casting of each vote. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1311 "2014-03-16T14:39:54Z")
Why don’t they ask the population if they want independence? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1312 "2014-03-16T14:46:16Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > From the Russian perspective the expansionist and war mongers is the West, using organisations such as NATO to encroach closer and closer on Russia, breaking a lot of prior agreements on the way. Ukraine was just the last straw. Largely today’s Russia is an enemy we created because we choose to do so. We have no formal agreements not to expand NATO. Russia has no justified right to invade a country because we’ve expanded NATO. Expanded NATO is not _casus belli_. Most of the countries that joined NATO from the former WP did so because they had essentially been conquered and subjugated for the entirety of the Cold War. Primarily because a weak and feeble man ran for a fourth term he never should have wanted as President and he was incapable of dealing with Stalin assertively at all. If we had an American equivalent of Churchill in the White House in those key months as Roosevelt withered away the history of the 20th century would have been far different. Do you really think it’s unreasonable that countries that had literally been conquered and occupied by Russia for the entire Cold War might want protection from the same happening again? Ukraine shows they absolutely needed that protection. Further, these are sovereign states, is it your assertion Russia should get a veto on what other sovereign states they enter into treaties and alliances with? > [@](#): > > I have a really hard time following your argumentation. On the one hand you agree that Crimea wants to be part of Russia. On the other hand you want the West to censure Russia for land grabbing? But if Crimea wants to be part of Russia the only just and reasonable, and workable, route to go forward is to allow this to happen. There are two ways this could play out: the Czechoslovakia way, or the Yugoslavian way. I’m all for going with the first, and letting people peacefully decide what nation they want to be part of. Which is what referendums are for. It was a pretty clear argument, the fact that it’s not a simplistic one and you have trouble understanding it makes me think you’re probably not being a serious debater and are just here to apologize for Russia because you are one of those people who is reflexively anti-Western so you’ll defend any non-Western country. But, giving you the benefit of the doubt, as I said the problem is the aggressive territorial land grab. I don’t care about Crimea itself because, like I said, it really does belong with Russia. But process matters because it sets the stage for future actions. If Crimea had been given a chance to actually set its own referendum and conduct it in a free society (not one where Russian criminal gangs roam the streets attacking people and the Russian military closes down independent media outlets), I’d have no problem. > [@](#): > > The reason Ukraine hasn’t and could not have become a member of or even a closer partner of NATO is that everybody has known since 1991 that this very conflict was simmering and would blow up sometime. Same reason the so-called Orange Revolution failed. I was in Sevastopol five years ago, public buildings including the mayors office were flying the Russian flags, people here and in the rest of Crimea watched Russian television, followed Russian politics and culture news, rubles were common currency, etc. What did people think was going to happen? It was stupidity to try to bring Ukraine closer to EU and NATO until this basic internal division had been dealt with. And it has not been dealt with by just Crimea. Ukraine is pretty much a failed state at this point. I don’t know if it could ever have been made to work, but certainly this Western focus on only the western part of Ukraine and disregard of the very Russian parts have only made the situation worse. Most of the reason Ukraine is a failed state is because of punitive Russian actions tantamount to economic warfare. > [@](#): > > Going forward, I think the only long-term workable solution for Ukraine is to work towards a partitioning of Ukraine into a ethnically homogenous state. Letting the regions that feel Russian fall back to Russia. In any case, Russia is just too big to slap effective sanctions on. It’s like when India developed nuclear weapons a few years ago it was slapped with some sanctions. I haven’t followed, but I’d guess they’re all but gone now. You can’t sanction a billion+ people and try to keep them out of the global community, economic and otherwise. And you can’t sanction Russia, unless you really think a new Cold War is a good idea. Actually you can’t period, because China is not going to play ball. Untrue, Russia can easily be sanctioned. Russia has a pathetically weak economy and Putin’s powerbase is a limited number of oligarchs. Even without sweeping sanctions just Magnitsky Act style sanctions significantly harm Putin’s power base. The oligarchs were infuriated about Magnitsky because they like to vacation in the United States, they have mansions in Miami etc. But like I said, sanctions aren’t what the focus should be on, the focus should be on establishing trip wires so this cannot happen again. > [@](#): > > Crimea is not a prize to be won. It is the home of the people living in Crimea, and the sole prerogative of the people to decide where they want to belong. Crimea is actually like a cancer to be won, it’s an economic drain on Kiev. But its people should be allowed to decide their own fate and not at the point of a Russian gun. Process matters. Your argument is like saying Nixon shouldn’t have been in trouble over Watergate because he was going to beat McGovern anyway, so who cares about all the illegal shit he did to help his campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1313 "2014-03-16T14:50:00Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > You can go down a street or public market in Kiev and see Ukrainian right wing nationalists dressed in full Nazi regalia. I’ve seen this on plenty of occasions. This is not something new, supposedly they’re more plentiful in western parts where I’ve not been. These people have always hated Russia and Russians, and have tried to stir up ethnic hatred. Not to much success. Incidentally, they generally hate Western Europe and the USA about equally as much as they hate Russian. You think you can work with them and control them? You cannot. They’ll bite your hand. > > The vast majority of Russians and Ukrainians in Ukraine does not hate each other (how could they, they’re married and in family left and right) and will not be overly troubled by this once the dust settles. Ukrainians will be happy to continue to have vacations in Russian Crimea like nothing much changed, ad like they’re happy that they can travel and work in Russia without much visa hassle. Unlike Western Europe where a common Ukrainian has to jump through hoops and perform magic tricks to get a Schengen visa. Your friends are known by the smallest things – like who’ll invite you to your home. > > The generational hatred is all in the American mind. Or are you being ironic, isn’t it a phrase from the movie Avatar? The actual fascists are very limited in Ukraine. Jewish leaders in Kiev have written to Putin publicly stating there is essentially no fascist/Nazi presence in Ukraine. It’s an ultra-fringe element you and people like you are making up for some reason. Plus, it’s likely at least some of them are funded by Russians. It is 100% fact that the fascist party in Hungary is financed by Russia because Russia wants to make all of its former vassals unstable and vulnerable to claims of being “fascist.” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1314 "2014-03-16T15:20:06Z")
Frankly, as a Jew, I get worried when European countries start turning expansionist. That’s not good for anyone, especially us. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1315 "2014-03-16T15:40:40Z")
I’m prepared to believe that nobody from the region can be believed. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1316 "2014-03-16T16:09:20Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > We have no formal agreements not to expand NATO. Russia has no justified right to invade a country because we’ve expanded NATO. Expanded NATO is not _casus belli_. There was an agreement not to expand NATO into former Soviet countries. Don’t know how formal it was. Does it matter? Russia certainly had the impression that such an agreement existed, and that NATO broke it and has been moving wars and military bases closer and closer to Russian borders ever since. In any case, it’s not about what is strictly legal according to various lawyers, but about your assertion about Russian warmongering. Certainly we can agree that the USA and the West in general have been involved in a lot more foreign wars the last couple of decades than has Russia. Yet Russia is painted as the warmonger. There’s nothing wrong with being a warmonger, some wars need to be fought, but if we’re about dealing out warmonger awards, we should not go home empty-handed because nobody does it anywhere near as good as us. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It was a pretty clear argument, the fact that it’s not a simplistic one and you have trouble understanding it makes me think you’re probably not being a serious debater and are just here to apologize for Russia because you are one of those people who is reflexively anti-Western so you’ll defend any non-Western country. But, giving you the benefit of the doubt, as I said the problem is the aggressive territorial land grab. I don’t care about Crimea itself because, like I said, it really does belong with Russia. That’s the point I’m trying to square: how can it be aggressive land grab when the land belongs to Russia? In any case, I have little sympathy for your point of view since you see Crimea as a sacrificial chess piece. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Most of the reason Ukraine is a failed state is because of punitive Russian actions tantamount to economic warfare. Ukraine is failed for a lot of reasons, corruption and lack of laws being the most important, followed by EU indifference. However Russian gas prices is not one of them and Russia is no more obliged to sell gas to Ukraine to a certain price than is the USA. If you feel like Ukraine is being dealt a bad deal go ahead and export your own gas to them at a lower price. Certainly you have enough of it. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > But like I said, sanctions aren’t what the focus should be on, the focus should be on establishing trip wires so this cannot happen again. The best way to prevent it from happening again is to not strain Ukrainian homogeneity beyond breaking point. By for instance acknowledging that the Orange Revolution section of the country is just one part, and by furthering things like NATO membership at a no faster rate than the Russian part of the population can also accept. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Your argument is like saying Nixon shouldn’t have been in trouble over Watergate because he was going to beat McGovern anyway, so who cares about all the illegal shit he did to help his campaign. Then your argument must be that the USA revolution should never have been allowed to happen because it’s illegal according to British rules. I’m no big fan of how Russia handled the situation, however what the West did afterwards did absolutely nothing to better the situation. I’ve been saying since the first post that the Crimean should have been allowed to chose their own fate, and the West’s role should have been to further that end. It’d never have been perfect, but a referendum would have hell of a lot better if the West instead of knee-jerk condemnations had reacted by integrating itself fully in furthering a fair referendum instead of being concerned about various irrelevant juridical aspects of it. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The actual fascists are very limited in Ukraine. Jewish leaders in Kiev have written to Putin publicly stating there is essentially no fascist/Nazi presence in Ukraine. It’s an ultra-fringe element you and people like you are making up for some reason. There are no people like me. There’s just me. I have no agenda. I only write what I have seen with my own eyes. If you have other experiences then feel free to share. > [@Alessan](#): > > Frankly, as a Jew, I get worried when European countries start turning expansionist. That’s not good for anyone, especially us. Jews are not everything’s measure. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1317 "2014-03-16T17:03:50Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Most of the reason Ukraine is a failed state is because of punitive Russian actions tantamount to economic warfare. Cite, please. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Jewish leaders in Kiev have written to Putin publicly stating there is essentially no fascist/Nazi presence in Ukraine. Cite, please. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1318 "2014-03-16T17:43:04Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Cite, please. I believe he’s talking about [this open letter to Putin,](http://eajc.org/page32/news43672.html) the essence of which “if you’re talking about invading Ukraine to protect Russian speakers, Ukrainian Jews are primarily Russian speakers, and we’ll take our chances without your help. So thanks, but no thanks. We’re more worried about being ‘protected’ by Russia than about what might happen to us in an independent Ukraine.” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1319 "2014-03-16T17:50:29Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Cite, please. It’s an opinion, not citing it. > [@](#): > > Cite, please. Undeniable fact, so easily cited: [Cite](http://www.eurojewcong.org/ukraine/10826-ukraine-religious-leaders-call-for-russian-withdrawal-from-crimea.html) [Cite](http://www.jta.org/2014/03/05/news-opinion/world/ukraines-jewish-leaders-to-vladimir-putin-back-off#ixzz2vEbwaTvU) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1320 "2014-03-16T17:58:06Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > There was an agreement not to expand NATO into former Soviet countries. Don’t know how formal it was. Does it matter? Russia certainly had the impression that such an agreement existed, and that NATO broke it and has been moving wars and military bases closer and closer to Russian borders ever since. What wars has NATO started near Russian borders? Again: Does NATO expansion justify Putin invading sovereign countries, yes or no? > [@](#): > > In any case, it’s not about what is strictly legal according to various lawyers, but about your assertion about Russian warmongering. Certainly we can agree that the USA and the West in general have been involved in a lot more foreign wars the last couple of decades than has Russia. Yet Russia is painted as the warmonger. There’s nothing wrong with being a warmonger, some wars need to be fought, but if we’re about dealing out warmonger awards, we should not go home empty-handed because nobody does it anywhere near as good as us. Irrelevant, I don’t care what other countries have done. This thread is about Russian actions not what other countries have done that they should or shouldn’t have done. Those are diversion issues that have nothing to do with whether or not Putin was justified in invading a sovereign state to conquer territory or how the West should respond. > [@](#): > > That’s the point I’m trying to square: how can it be aggressive land grab when the land belongs to Russia? In any case, I have little sympathy for your point of view since you see Crimea as a sacrificial chess piece. Because it doesn’t belong to Russia. Russia conquered it just a few weeks ago, where have you been? I’m saying we shouldn’t **go to war** with Russia over Crimea, because that’d be stupid since Crimea probably **wants** to be part of Russia anyway. They may have voted against it in the past, but Ukraine is shittier now than it was then and Russia is more prosperous. What I’m saying is Russia is setting a dangerous precedent, because there are other countries with significant Russian speaking populations like the Baltic states where I believe we _would_ go to war with Russia over them invading like they have Crimea. Our response, which is the subject of this thread, needs to be something that makes it 100% clear to Putin that repeating Crimea 2.0 in Estonia or Latvia would mean war with the United States. Similarly to how past American Presidents have made it known that certain Soviet actions would be considered _casus belli_. For example Kennedy making it known any missile launched from Cuba to the United States would be responded to as if it was launched from the USSR, or us setting up large military bases in West Germany so it would be known any Soviet invasion there would be a declaration of war on America. > [@](#): > > Ukraine is failed for a lot of reasons, corruption and lack of laws being the most important, followed by EU indifference. However Russian gas prices is not one of them and Russia is no more obliged to sell gas to Ukraine to a certain price than is the USA. If you feel like Ukraine is being dealt a bad deal go ahead and export your own gas to them at a lower price. Certainly you have enough of it. Russia has done a lot to fuck around with the energy situation in Ukraine, including blocking Ukrainian attempts to buy cheaper gas from Turkmenistan that would have had to transit Russia. > [@](#): > > The best way to prevent it from happening again is to not strain Ukrainian homogeneity beyond breaking point. By for instance acknowledging that the Orange Revolution section of the country is just one part, and by furthering things like NATO membership at a no faster rate than the Russian part of the population can also accept. I’ve already said write Ukraine off, we don’t need / want that country in NATO now. I’d only advocate military support for Ukraine in 2-3 years if they still exist as a country. > [@](#): > > Then your argument must be that the USA revolution should never have been allowed to happen because it’s illegal according to British rules. Can’t have it both ways. Do you concede then that the removal of Yanukovych was just as proper as the American Revolution and thus shouldn’t be a point of criticism? > [@](#): > > I’m no big fan of how Russia handled the situation, however what the West did afterwards did absolutely nothing to better the situation. I’ve been saying since the first post that the Crimean should have been allowed to chose their own fate, and the West’s role should have been to further that end. It’d never have been perfect, but a referendum would have hell of a lot better if the West instead of knee-jerk condemnations had reacted by integrating itself fully in furthering a fair referendum instead of being concerned about various irrelevant juridical aspects of it. The West would never have been permitted any significant role in the referendum. Further, the referendum with Russian soldiers could never be free or real, so who cares? Just let Russia keep its economic backwater that will put their ill run government even further in deficit spending and their pathetic stock market can continue to fall. The point is to prevent war with Russia, which requires a response to them conquering sovereign territory. > [@](#): > > Jews are not everything’s measure. I give them some street cred in measuring whether or not a country is overrun with Nazis. 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