# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 70
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1381 "2014-03-16T23:21:43Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > I will try to check to see if the specific information I quoted is correct or incorrect. If it turns out to be incorrect, I will apologize to you all forthwith. My information was correct. From [_The Huffington Post_’s British site](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/03/ukraine-government_n_4889063.html), about Andriy Parubiy: > [@](#): > > **Andriy Parubiy […] Secretary of the National Security and National Defence Committee.** During the Maidan protests, Parubiy was a key figure in a group called Right Sector, a group many have said took violence in the Maidan movement to an unacceptable level. And from the same article, about Dmytro Yarosh: > [@](#): > > The shaven-headed 42-year-old is the head of the aforementioned Right Sector, a militant opposition group. **He is now appointed Parubiy’s deputy Secretary of the National Security and National Defence Committee.** Fiercely right-wing and anti-Russian, he has called for various political parties, including the Communist party, to be banned. Right Sector considers Svoboda to be too liberal and conformist. Backing up the info on Mr. Yarosh, we also have [this disturbing article from the _New York Times_](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/12/world/europe/adept-at-toppling-power-right-wing-ukrainian-learns-to-wield-it.html). So, no, it’s not all Russian propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1382 "2014-03-16T23:34:03Z")
Let’s say that the guys in Kiev are Fascits, capital-F-bold-font-size-600-Hitler’s-birthday-celebrating Fascits. Is that even remotely an excuse for invading a country? They want to join a multinational union. Is that a reason for invasion? They use their constitutional rules for deposing a president. Is that a reason for invasion? The result will be a mixture of _fait accompli_ and “We have won the peace”. Bye-bye Crimea. What’s next? Eastern Ukraine? Moldova? Belarus? Estonia is 25% Russian. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1383 "2014-03-16T23:35:02Z")
What if pro-Russian Ukrainians take to the streets to protest 1/2 President Yatz decision to strengthen ties to the EU and then peaceful protest turns to violence and begets more violence and 1/2 Prsesident Yatz flees for his life to the EU. Isn’t that ok to just suspend the constitution and appoint a pro Russian President? ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1384 "2014-03-16T23:37:05Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Let’s say that the guys in Kiev are Fascits, capital-F-bold-font-size-600-Hitler’s-birthday-celebrating Fascits. Is that even remotely an excuse for invading a country? > They want to join a multinational union. Is that a reason for invasion? > They use their constitutional rules for deposing a president. Is that a reason for invasion? Are you asking me? If you’re asking me, then my answer is “no” to all of the above. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1385 "2014-03-16T23:41:58Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > What if pro-Russian Ukrainians take to the streets to protest 1/2 President Yatz decision to strengthen ties to the EU and then peaceful protest turns to violence and begets more violence and 1/2 Prsesident Yatz flees for his life to the EU. Isn’t that ok to just suspend the constitution and appoint a pro Russian President? I don’t know what 1/2 president means, therefore I’m unsure as how to answer. > [@Steken](#): > > Are you asking me? > > If you’re asking me, then my answer is “no” to all of the above. No, not you specifically. Everyone, rethorically. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1386 "2014-03-17T00:12:38Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I don’t think anti-abortion or even anti-gay sentiments make you a fascist. However… Svoboda is ultra-nationalist and wants to nationalize major industries and ban sale of lands to private individuals. When it was founded it adopted as its symbol what looks to me like a stylized swastika. Their party endorses the criminalization of anti-Ukrainian speech, they want to erect trade barriers to ‘protect’ Ukrainian goods, they want the state to own the farmland and lease it back to farmers, yada yada. > > All in all, that’s a close approximation of a fascist agenda, and would be even if they were totally supportive of abortion and gay marriage - which they’re not. They even want to criminalize ‘promotion’ of abortions. > > Now, I believe it’s true that they have moderated their beliefs in order to gain more support and become electable. But clearly many of the people in positions of power in that party have some pretty extreme views. A lot of that stuff, especially the anti-Jew and swastika rhetoric went out in the early 2000s and they didn’t start winning seats in parliament since. To be honest they are very little differentiated from Patin’s party in Russia. Edit to add: Except they have like 15 seats in Parliament whereas Putin’s has a majority in the legislature. It’s hard for me to buy claims Ukraine is “becoming a fascist state” based on their limited number of seats. It’s especially ironic this claim is coming from the Putin apologists here who repeat over and over again that the impeachment was “unconstitutional” but ignore the unconstitutionality of the Crimean referendum, the way it violates treaties Russia has signed for them to have invaded Crimea etc, all while using the fascist card to justify it while ignoring that Putin’s Russia doesn’t have a minority fascist party but is actually ran by one. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1387 "2014-03-17T00:36:50Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > A lot of that stuff, especially the anti-Jew and swastika rhetoric went out in the early 2000s No no no no no. Those Goebbels books were distributed in 2013. Got that? _2013._ And [here’s another gem about the party’s _current leader_, who you falsely claimed had been “kicked out”](http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/): > [@](#): > > After the 2010 conviction of the Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk for his supporting role in the death of nearly 30,000 people at the Sobibor camp, Tyahnybok rushed to Germany to declare him a hero who was “fighting for truth.” Classy. But perfectly alright, according to you, because… Putin is an asshole? Again: Does none of this bother you? > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Except they have like 15 seats in Parliament [Wrong again](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/07/us-ukraine-crisis-far-right-insight-idUSBREA2618B20140307): > [@](#): > > In the 2012 election, Svoboda won nearly 10.5 percent of the vote and **37** seats in parliament. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It’s hard for me to buy claims Ukraine is “becoming a fascist state” based on their limited number of seats. Who are you quoting here, exactly? Who wrote that Ukraine is “becoming a fascist state”? Not me: I still hold out hope that Yatsenyuk & co. will distance themselves from the fascists, and slowly but surely push them out of the government. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It’s especially ironic this claim is coming from the Putin apologists here who repeat over and over again that the impeachment was “unconstitutional” but ignore the unconstitutionality of the Crimean referendum, the way it violates treaties Russia has signed for them to have invaded Crimea etc, all while using the fascist card to justify it while ignoring that Putin’s Russia doesn’t have a minority fascist party but is actually ran by one. Who says these things? Not me: I think the Crimean referendum was an absolute farce, seeing how no impartial international observers were present. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1388 "2014-03-17T00:41:43Z")
I’m very happy for the Crimeans and it was good to see them celebrating. I don’t think I’ve seen so much celebration since the results of the Kosovan referendum to break away from Serbia. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1389 "2014-03-17T00:47:39Z")
\*\*Martin Hyde: \*\* You are conflating a number of issues. I’m specifically addressing whether or not Svoboda could reasonably be said to be a ‘fascist’ party. After reading their platform and statements from some of their leaders, I’d have to tentatively say ‘yes’. Now, that doesn’t mean they’re about to get out the long knives, but it’s hard to deny that if you had to place them on a political spectrum, they’d be pretty darned close to the fascist side. That doesn’t mean Putin is any better, or that Russia has any justification for invading. It also doesn’t mean that Ukraine is ‘turning fascist’. It’s not a big surprise that an ultra-nationalist party would rise up in a country under military threat from one neighbor and cultural and economic threats from others. We’ve seen that before, and not just in the distant past. The ‘Golden Dawn’ party in Greece looks very similar, right down to the stylized swastika they use. And they hold 18 seats in Parliament and got 7% of the popular vote in the last election. That doesn’t make Greece open-season for tyrants. The question is whether the Ukrainian people will support a fascist state once the forces that caused it to rise wither away. In the last election, Svoboda only got 8.1% of the popular vote - the main parties look to be your typical European social democrats, pretty much. Lots of promises to improve health care, clean up the environment, improve retirement benefits, yada yada. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1390 "2014-03-17T00:48:11Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > That’s funny. The part about Ukraine’s standards of living “go up” anyway. BTW, how do you feel about Tatars? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1391 "2014-03-17T02:16:32Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I’m very happy for the Crimeans and it was good to see them celebrating. I don’t think I’ve seen so much celebration since the results of the Kosovan referendum to break away from Serbia. What I like is seeing the Hanmer and Sickle flag flying again in Ukraine proper. That can only mean good things. I mean, we all miss Stalin and his ability to keep order. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1392 "2014-03-17T02:18:59Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > BTW, how do you feel about Tatars? Dude, aren’t you following the thread? If Russians/Soviets kick you out, you lost your rights. If the Russian want to get something back, it’s their right. Do keep up 😃 ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1393 "2014-03-17T03:32:45Z")
Yah, if you doon’t agree with Roosha, Yoo’re a fascist don’t ya know. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1394 "2014-03-17T03:46:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah then you agree with him that Russia is run by fascists. > [@Terr](#): > > If one is consistent in one’s beliefs, yes. Watch **RedFury** furiously backpedal. Partly, yes they are. No “backpedaling” whatsoever. Putin’s Russia gets high praise from me. Not one shot fired in anger & Crimea back where it belongs/wants to be. All told, highly successful Russian maneuver. Enjoy - or allow infelicitous thoughts to rule your day. Not going to change a thing, other than your mood. Uncork them, Crimea! ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1395 "2014-03-17T03:51:54Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Partly, yes they are. > > No “backpedaling” whatsoever. Putin’s Russia gets high praise from me. Not one shot fired in anger & Crimea back where it belongs/wants to be. > > All told, highly successful Russian maneuver. > > Enjoy - or allow infelicitous thoughts to rule your day. Not going to change a thing, other than your mood. > > Uncork them, Crimea! One more time, how do you feel about Tatars? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1396 "2014-03-17T04:26:46Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > One more time, how do you feel about Tatars? Same as he does about Basques, I’d imagine. But we’ll be hearing lots about them soon as they’re driven out of Crimea. No doubt they’ll be called “fascists” for getting in the way of good Russian bullets. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1397 "2014-03-17T05:08:39Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > One more time, how do you feel about Tatars? What a silly question. How do you yourself feel about Tartars? Do you know any Tartars? Have you ever seen any Tartars? What do you know of Tartars you haven’t read on Wikipedia? Did you know Tartars existed before today? My impression based solely on anecdotal evidence is that Tartars are about equally disliked and ignored by Russians and Ukrainians, and that the feeling is mutual in that regard. If Ukrainian nationalists had been about hating Tartars instead of hating Russians, they could probably have united the slavic nation under a common purpose. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1398 "2014-03-17T06:01:45Z")
Suddenly, “nationalists” are the new bogeymen. As if there aren’t “nationalists” in every country. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1399 "2014-03-17T06:13:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Suddenly, “nationalists” are the new bogeymen. As if there aren’t “nationalists” in every country. Perhaps this is a European distinction, but the way the terms are used around here is usually: nationalist = bad chauvinistic, patriot = good, or at least not too bad. When “Ukrainian nationalists” is used I read it as the Ukraine for Ukrainians, One Nation, One People, One Language, etc. sort of nationalists. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1400 "2014-03-17T10:38:23Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Crimea back where it belongs/wants to be. Yes, an astounding result! 95%! Clearly this shows an overwhelming public support for the result, much in the same way that similar percentages of the revelant populations wanted Saddam Hussein or Robert Mugabe or, dare I say it, Putin to rule over them, as expressed in similarly fair and open elections free from any intimidation or manipulation. I personally have full confidence that these results reflect the true will of the people, and you’ll never hear anyone say otherwise. At least not in public or on camera, anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=69) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=71)