# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 71
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1401 "2014-03-17T10:55:33Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I don’t know what 1/2 president means, therefore I’m unsure as how to answer. Ukraine has two revognized Presidents. One properly elected and never properly impeached recognized by Crimea. The other was appointed by militant Take-over and recognized by Eastern Ukraine. So do you support permitting the anti-EU Side setting up camp in Kiev to try to bring down the appointed President by protest and perhaps throwing Molotov cocktails at police in order to have their way? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1402 "2014-03-17T11:06:19Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Yes, an astounding result! 95%! Clearly this shows an overwhelming public support for the result, much in the same way that similar percentages of the revelant populations wanted Saddam Hussein or Robert Mugabe or, dare I say it, Putin to rule over them, as expressed in similarly fair and open elections free from any intimidation or manipulation. I personally have full confidence that these results reflect the true will of the people, and you’ll never hear anyone say otherwise. At least not in public or on camera, anyway. Why don’t you understand that everone that cast a ballot voted in favor of becoming a part of a Russia again? The number that matters is what number of ballots were cast. No one was forced to cast a vote by the barrel of a gun. Voting was a celebrated event. Like out 4Th of July. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1403 "2014-03-17T11:11:24Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Why don’t you understand that everone that cast a ballot voted in favor of becoming a part of a Russia again? The number that matters is what number of ballots were cast. No one was forced to cast a vote by the barrel of a gun. Voting was a celebrated event. Like out 4Th of July. Why don’t you understand why a 95% result for _anything_ in _any_ election is highly suspect? ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1404 "2014-03-17T11:12:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Suddenly, “nationalists” are the new bogeymen “Suddenly”? Nothing new about it. Us swarthy types over here in Europe have been stabbed, kicked, shot, beaten up, had our shops and houses and property burned down or vandalized and told to G.T.F.O. for decades already. We’ve had wave after wave after wave of skinheads, boneheads, “Rock Against Communism”-types, Holocaust deniers, fascists, neo-Nazis, nativists, “identitarians,” “racial realists,” “counter-jihadists,” etc., etc. _ad nauseam_, from Greece to Norway to Austria and Spain. But hey, I’m sure they’re all teddy bears at heart, because fuck Putin amirite. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1405 "2014-03-17T11:18:01Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Yes, an astounding result! 95%! Obviously 95% does not favour the proposition. There’s an incredible amount of disillusion and apathy towards established political process in Ukraine. My guess is that those that were against just didn’t bother cast their vote thinking it was a done deal. But not that there necessarily have been a lot of election fraud. 95% means nothing without voter turnout. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1406 "2014-03-17T11:20:34Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Yah, if you doon’t agree with Roosha, Yoo’re a fascist don’t ya know. No it’s that if you’re a fascist, you’re a fascist, even if your country is being bullied by Russia. But thanks for playing. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1407 "2014-03-17T11:23:53Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > But hey, I’m sure they’re all teddy bears at heart, because fuck Putin amirite. No, they’re a _different problem_. To quote **Aji de Gallina** , someone with whom I rarely agree on politics: > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Let’s say that the guys in Kiev are Fascits, capital-F-bold-font-size-600-Hitler’s-birthday-celebrating Fascits. Is that even remotely an excuse for invading a country? And this is the fundmental problem. Svoboda may well be a quasi-fascist party but they are not the entirety of the new government and even if they were, that in itself would not be an excuse for the invasion/occupation nor an excuse for this sham of a referendum. So yes, fuck Putin. Fuck Svoboda too, if you like. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1408 "2014-03-17T11:24:36Z")
What really surprises me is that someone like RedFury is supporting Crimea’s ‘Franco-style’ referendum. Yesterday’s vote, in both form and victory margin, are a lot like Spain’s referenda in 1947 and 1966 ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1409 "2014-03-17T12:07:14Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Obviously 95% does not favour the proposition. There’s an incredible amount of disillusion and apathy towards established political process in Ukraine. My guess is that those that were against just didn’t bother cast their vote thinking it was a done deal. But not that there necessarily have been a lot of election fraud. 95% means nothing without voter turnout. The news reports I’ve seen place the turnout at around [80%](http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/17/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1). ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_Merton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Frank\_Merton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_Merton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1410 "2014-03-17T12:12:17Z")
The assertion that the Ukrainians in Kiev are Fascists goes way too far and I think is probably right out of the Russian disinformation machine. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1411 "2014-03-17T12:19:54Z")
> [@Frank\_Merton](#): > > The assertion that the Ukrainians in Kiev are Fascists goes way too far and I think is probably right out of the Russian disinformation machine. _Some_ Ukrainians in Kiev may be neo-Fascists. The new government in Kiev is not a fascist government (or at least not yet). ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_Merton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Frank\_Merton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_Merton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1412 "2014-03-17T12:22:52Z")
Some people everywhere are neo-Fascists. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1413 "2014-03-17T12:46:28Z")
And that’s why we should invade everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1414 "2014-03-17T13:16:15Z")
Odd that the West should voice their concern about the unconstitutionality of the Crimean referendum. I don’t recall Western leaders wringing their hands when Kosovo held a referendum to detach itself from Serbia. I supported the Kosovans then, I support the Crimeans now. Is anybody on this board seriously arguing that the great majority of Crimeans do _not_ wish to reunite with their motherland? As to Putin’s further goals I suspect that he does have ambitions to expand into territory once part of the Soviet Union. I would not support such goals but with the weakest American President in a long time in the White House I don’t see much to restrain him. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1415 "2014-03-17T13:44:10Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Odd that the West should voice their concern about the unconstitutionality of the Crimean referendum. I don’t recall Western leaders wringing their hands when Kosovo held a referendum to detach itself from Serbia. I supported the Kosovans then, I support the Crimeans now. Is anybody on this board seriously arguing that the great majority of Crimeans do _not_ wish to reunite with their motherland? This and the Kosovo referendum are very different animals, and comparing them obscures more than it reveals. They have very, very little in common. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1416 "2014-03-17T13:57:13Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > As to Putin’s further goals I suspect that he does have ambitions to expand into territory once part of the Soviet Union. I would not support such goals but with the weakest American President in a long time in the White House I don’t see much to restrain him. a) What makes you think Putin’s actions have anything to do with the US? b) What do you think the US (and this president) should be doing about this? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1417 "2014-03-17T13:58:15Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > “Suddenly”? Nothing new about it. > > Us swarthy types over here in Europe have been stabbed, kicked, shot, beaten up, had our shops and houses and property burned down or vandalized and told to G.T.F.O. for decades already. > > We’ve had wave after wave after wave of skinheads, boneheads, “Rock Against Communism”-types, Holocaust deniers, fascists, neo-Nazis, nativists, “identitarians,” “racial realists,” “counter-jihadists,” etc., etc. _ad nauseam_, from Greece to Norway to Austria and Spain. > > But hey, I’m sure they’re all teddy bears at heart, because fuck Putin amirite. Interesting - apparently there are fascists in Ukraine. Some held a good old-fashioned book-burning, deliberately targeting books on language and history of the despised ‘other’. That’s a very clear fascist-style tactic. [http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/16/us-ukraine-east-idUSBREA2F0P220140316](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/16/us-ukraine-east-idUSBREA2F0P220140316) Oh wait - those were the pro-Russian fascists. > [@](#): > > (Reuters) - Pro-Russian demonstrators in eastern Ukraine smashed their way into public buildings and burned Ukrainian-language books on Sunday in further protests following two deadly clashes in the region last week. > > … > > The footage then showed young men seizing Ukrainian-language books, including a volume devoted to the 1932-1933 man-made famine in Soviet Ukraine, which killed from 7-10 million people. > > “Do you see what they print here?” one activist said to another. > > The activists then took the books into the street and set them alight in small bonfires … ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1418 "2014-03-17T14:11:28Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > “Suddenly”? Nothing new about it. > > Us swarthy types over here in Europe have been stabbed, kicked, shot, beaten up, had our shops and houses and property burned down or vandalized and told to G.T.F.O. for decades already. > > We’ve had wave after wave after wave of skinheads, boneheads, “Rock Against Communism”-types, Holocaust deniers, fascists, neo-Nazis, nativists, “identitarians,” “racial realists,” “counter-jihadists,” etc., etc. _ad nauseam_, from Greece to Norway to Austria and Spain. > > But hey, I’m sure they’re all teddy bears at heart, because fuck Putin amirite. Ironically, I was watching a show on CNN this weekend where they were talking to some of the folks in the Crimea. One guy, (a Muslim(??) who was opposed to the vote) had much the same experience you are mentioning here. I guess the government (fun loving guys no doubt) posted pictures of him on the walls of his building saying he was a dissident, and I guess the playful people in his building took turns teaching him the error of his ways. The voting place near his building also had pictures of this guy (and many others)…I guess to ensure they got a good booth during the historic vote, right? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1419 "2014-03-17T14:21:33Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > “Suddenly”? Nothing new about it. > > Us swarthy types over here in Europe have been stabbed, kicked, shot, beaten up, had our shops and houses and property burned down or vandalized and told to G.T.F.O. for decades already. > > We’ve had wave after wave after wave of skinheads, boneheads, “Rock Against Communism”-types, Holocaust deniers, fascists, neo-Nazis, nativists, “identitarians,” “racial realists,” “counter-jihadists,” etc., etc. _ad nauseam_, from Greece to Norway to Austria and Spain. > > But hey, I’m sure they’re all teddy bears at heart, because fuck Putin amirite. No, youarerong. It’s more: Putin is right because… Nationalists! And Russians are such cute and cuddly creatures. Not a “nationalist” among them!! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1420 "2014-03-17T14:34:56Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Ironically, I was watching a show on CNN this weekend where they were talking to some of the folks in the Crimea. One guy, (a Muslim(??) who was opposed to the vote) had much the same experience you are mentioning here. I guess the government (fun loving guys no doubt) posted pictures of him on the walls of his building saying he was a dissident, and I guess the playful people in his building took turns teaching him the error of his ways. The voting place near his building also had pictures of this guy (and many others)…I guess to ensure they got a good booth during the historic vote, right? I have to say, though - the Russians sure did organize this whole thing really fast, didn’t they? I mean, conquering a country isn’t something you throw together over a weekend. I didn’t know they had it in them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=70) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=72)