# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 72
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1421 "2014-03-17T14:38:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, youarerong. It’s more: Putin is right because… Nationalists! And Russians are such cute and cuddly creatures. Not a “nationalist” among them!! And if I’ve got two groups of nationalists to decide between, I’m going to back the ones getting territory grabbed from them. When Russia is getting bullied by the Ukraine, I’ll back Russia. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1422 "2014-03-17T14:40:55Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I have to say, though - the Russians sure did organize this whole thing really fast, didn’t they? I mean, conquering a country isn’t something you throw together over a weekend. I didn’t know they had it in them. I’m sure they just threw it together on the fly. 😛 And, if I’m being honest, there probably are a majority of Crimean’s that, for valid reasons from their perspective DO want to go back to the joys of being Russian citizens. Just like there really were a majority of German speaking people in the Sudetenland who really did want to be back in the folds of Germany. I think if they had held a referendum using the mechanisms already in their Constitution and part of the original transfer of the Crimea to the Ukraine (and even without Russia troops blockading Ukrainian military bases, ports and basically occupying the Crimean) the outcome would have been very similar. Maybe not over 90% approval (which tells you something right there when people throw out ridiculous numbers like that), but certainly a clear majority. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1423 "2014-03-17T14:45:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I have to say, though - the Russians sure did organize this whole thing really fast, didn’t they? I mean, conquering a country isn’t something you throw together over a weekend. I didn’t know they had it in them. Fantastic organisation skills, really. The Swiss have nothing on the Russians. Just imagine how cool Scotland’s independence referendum would be with just two weeks of preparation 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1424 "2014-03-17T15:03:19Z")
One has to give tremendous credit to Ukraine, really. Ukraine absolutely has a casus belli against Russia and would be perfectly justified in going to war with them - indeed, they have been justified in going to war with Russia for weeks now. Once upon a time they would have declared war and lots of people would have died and Ukraine would have lost the war because that’s just what nation-states did; having part of the country conquered by another would be a slight on a nation’s honor that could not be countenanced but the ensuring war would have been much, much worse. Ukraine, to its enormous credit, chose to accept that they couldn’t do anything about this that would not result in a bloodbath. Russia tried to push Ukraine into shooting, like they did with Georgia, but the Ukrainians were too smart for it. I am awestruck with admiration for Ukraine’s restraint. We owe it to them to take steps now to better arm ourselves and our allies to stop further Russian imperialism. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1425 "2014-03-17T15:52:22Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > a) What makes you think Putin’s actions have anything to do with the US? > b) What do you think the US (and this president) should be doing about this? Putin’s actions have much to do with the US and his perception of the American leadership. It isn’t that another President would do more, it’s the perception that this President won’t. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1426 "2014-03-17T16:03:36Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Putin’s actions have much to do with the US and his perception of the American leadership. It isn’t that another President would do more, it’s the perception that this President won’t. So are you saying “Putin would never have tried this if Reagan was president.”? Not every world issue relates directly to American politics. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1427 "2014-03-17T16:10:40Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So are you saying “Putin would never have tried this if Reagan was president.”? Not every world issue relates directly to American politics. I think it’s wrong anyway. I doubt Putin would have been deterred by ANY US president. The US is really peripheral to all of this. The only thing that might have deterred Putin would have been a stronger, more militant/unified Europe that saw the Ukraine/Crimea as a vital stake in their own strategic picture. Nothing else would have deterred Putin from a land grab in the Crimea, something that Russia DOES see as a strategic necessity, and one they are willing to risk economic sanctions to pursue in a fairly bare knuckled way. I don’t think Russia would risk war for it, but then there IS no real risk of war over it at this time, and economic sanctions I think Russia believes it can shrug off…or, at least, the gains outweigh the risks or the pain of sanctions. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1428 "2014-03-17T16:24:19Z")
> [@Frank\_Merton](#): > > Some people everywhere are neo-Fascists. Yes. Who argued otherwise? > [@Malthus](#): > > Interesting - apparently there are fascists in Ukraine. Yes. Some on the Russian side, and some on the Ukrainian side. Who argued otherwise? > [@XT](#): > > Ironically, I was watching a show on CNN this weekend where they were talking to some of the folks in the Crimea. One guy, (a Muslim(??) who was opposed to the vote) had much the same experience you are mentioning here. I guess the government (fun loving guys no doubt) posted pictures of him on the walls of his building saying he was a dissident, and I guess the playful people in his building took turns teaching him the error of his ways. The voting place near his building also had pictures of this guy (and many others)…I guess to ensure they got a good booth during the historic vote, right? Why “ironically”? Who argued that there are no bad guys on the Russian side? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, youarerong. It’s more: Putin is right because… Nationalists! And Russians are such cute and cuddly creatures. Not a “nationalist” among them!! Who argued that “Putin is right because… Nationalists!”, or that there are no Russian “nationalists”? ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1429 "2014-03-17T16:33:07Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > No, they’re a _different problem_. I agree. > [@Gyrate](#): > > Svoboda may well be a quasi-fascist party but they are not the entirety of the new government and even if they were, that in itself would not be an excuse for the invasion/occupation nor an excuse for this sham of a referendum. I agree. > [@Gyrate](#): > > So yes, fuck Putin. Fuck Svoboda too, if you like. I agree. My problem is with those who, like **Martin Hyde** , spread falsehoods about there being “essentially no fascist/Nazi presence in Ukraine.” Same thing when people try to deny Svoboda’s extremely troubling fascist roots, and/or look the other way when fascists worm their way into the new Ukrainian government, or act as if this isn’t something to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1430 "2014-03-17T16:34:02Z")
[QUOTE=Steken] Why “ironically”? Who argued that there are no bad guys on the Russian side? [/QUOTE] Um…just about everyone on the pro-Putin/pro-Crimea land grab side of the argument have been apologists for what Russia (and the annexation movement in the Crimea) have been doing, while attempting to paint the Ukrainians as fascists, thugs, etc etc. So, that was, to me, fairly ironic. In addition, the irony would be that similar tactics to those you laid out there have apparently been used in the Crimea to stifle any sort of difference in opinion from the lock step agreement that the Crimea should be annexed by the Russians. So, yeah…this entire subject is brimming with irony, IMHO. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1431 "2014-03-17T16:35:58Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > And that’s why we should invade everywhere. [Uh oh.](http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/1.580163?v=492D140DA2F8DF7BB0E881DF68FBD6A8) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1432 "2014-03-17T16:37:34Z")
The Western backed militant coup d’état of Yanukovich is not going so well is it? > [@](#): > > Russian shares and the rouble rebounded as investors calculated that Western sanctions would be largely symbolic and would avoid trade or financial measures that would inflict significant economic damage. > **[Crimea Votes To Join Russia](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/crimea-votes-russia_n_4978631)** > > Crimea Votes To Join Russia ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1433 "2014-03-17T16:41:45Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Um…just about everyone on the pro-Putin/pro-Crimea land grab side of the argument have been apologists for what Russia (and the annexation movement in the Crimea) have been doing, while attempting to paint the Ukrainians as fascists, thugs, etc etc. OK. Those fellas are gonna have to speak for themselves, then. Me, I worry both about Ukrainian fascism and about this sham of a referendum. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1434 "2014-03-17T16:43:21Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The Western backed militant coup d’état of Yanukovich is not going so well is it? You do realize that just repeating the same assertions over and over does not actually make a thing true, right? No, wait, that’s your whole schtick. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1435 "2014-03-17T16:48:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So are you saying “Putin would never have tried this if Reagan was president.”? Not every world issue relates directly to American politics. It’s an arguable case although it admits of no resolution, of course. And, no, not every issue but do you honestly think that Putin and the Kremlin haven’t made a thorough assessment of Obama and factored it into their thinking? In affairs of this consequence the reaction of the world’s only superpower does matter. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1436 "2014-03-17T17:02:08Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > You do realize that just repeating the same assertions over and over does not actually make a thing true, right? > > No, wait, that’s your whole schtick. Never mind. Yanukovich was driven out of office by militant violence was he not? Senator McCain stood on the stage with the leaders of the Protests. I have seen the photos. What is not true? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1437 "2014-03-17T17:08:45Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Um…just about everyone on the pro-Putin/pro-Crimea land grab side of the argument have been apologists for what Russia (and the annexation movement in the Crimea) have been doing, while attempting to paint the Ukrainians as fascists, thugs, etc etc. So, that was, to me, fairly ironic. Just to be clear CarnalK made the untrue claim that I have painted the Ukrainians as fascists. I have proven the opposite is my view on that. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1438 "2014-03-17T17:34:51Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Russia tried to push Ukraine into shooting, like they did with Georgia, but the Ukrainians were too smart for it. So you think Medvedyev/Putin in 2008 had Russian soldiers and South Ossetia civilians deliberately killed by Georgian rockets and artillery by provoking that attack by the Georgian army? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1439 "2014-03-17T17:35:20Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Yanukovich was driven out of office by militant violence was he not? > > Senator McCain stood on the stage with the leaders of the Protests. I have seen the photos. > > What is not true? I rather doubt the leaders and people of the other thirty-plus nations that make up the Western world are comfortable with John McCain being appointed as their representative. Also, a popular uprising isn’t the same as a coup d’etat. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1440 "2014-03-17T17:52:36Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > I agree. > > I agree. > > I agree. > > My problem is with those who, like **Martin Hyde** , spread falsehoods about there being “essentially no fascist/Nazi presence in Ukraine.” Same thing when people try to deny Svoboda’s extremely troubling fascist roots, and/or look the other way when fascists worm their way into the new Ukrainian government, or act as if this isn’t something to worry about. My opinion is that fascist is as fascist does. So far, the “side” actually doing the stuff fascists were justly hated and feared for - that is, muzzle the press, murder journalists, inflame ethnic hatreds, use ethnicity as an excuse for invasion, arrange ‘demonstrations’ in support of the dear leader’s aggressions, fake up sham referendums, even burn history books (!!!), has been the Russian side. Yes, yes, Svoboda has ‘fascist roots’ and there are extremely hard-core ultra-nationalists in Ukraine - just as there are in lots of places. But, contrary to some expectations, they don’t appear to be carrying out any pogroms. I’ll find them ‘worrying’ when they, you know, give actual _cause_ for worry by doing even a tenth of the bad shit the Russians and ‘pro-Russians’ are doing _right now_. Until such a time as these terrible Ukrainian fascists actually do some of the bad shit that fascists are rightly hated for, all this talk about being ‘worried’ about Ukrainian fascism just looks like mouthing the aggressor’s line of propaganda - all the more ironic given that the aggressor, the Russians, actually _are_ doing that bad shit, and in spades. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=71) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=73)