# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 73
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1441 "2014-03-17T18:07:07Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > \*\*Martin Hyde: \*\* You are conflating a number of issues. I’m specifically addressing whether or not Svoboda could reasonably be said to be a ‘fascist’ party. After reading their platform and statements from some of their leaders, I’d have to tentatively say ‘yes’. Now, that doesn’t mean they’re about to get out the long knives, but it’s hard to deny that if you had to place them on a political spectrum, they’d be pretty darned close to the fascist side. I disagree that they are clearly fascist. For one, fascist is an unavoidably negative term that people associate with foreign conquests, genocide etc. It’s kind of like the word communist that could be neutral (and for many people it is), but it’s hard to call something communist without it having an unambiguously negative connotation. There are a lot of countries with leftist governments that want to nationalize or **have** nationalize a lot of industries. But I probably wouldn’t call them communists states, especially in an American-centric environment, as it has an undeniably negative connotation. In some countries this isn’t the case, for example while they don’t have a lot of political clout these days the Communist Party in Russia has been around ever since the fall of the USSR and isn’t seen as intrinsically negative. Fascist to me means more than just strong nationalism and the desire to nationalize some industries. It means specifically a limiting of civil rights and freedoms and honestly ultimately means an anti-democratic party. I don’t believe true fascism can allow for democracy. When a Russian says something is fascist I don’t believe they just mean “a strong nationalist party that advocates nationalization of some important industries”, because that describes Putin’s own party and thus obviously the members of that party calling the Ukrainians fascists do not believe themselves to be fascist. In Russia when you use the word fascist you’re talking about German armies that came in the 40s and killed millions of Russians, racists who commit invasions and genocides. If it just meant a “nationalist party that advocates for nationalizing some industries” then that would label Russia’s majority fascist–and the members of said party use fascist as an epithet. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1442 "2014-03-17T18:09:31Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > “Suddenly”? Nothing new about it. > > Us swarthy types over here in Europe have been stabbed, kicked, shot, beaten up, had our shops and houses and property burned down or vandalized and told to G.T.F.O. for decades already. > > We’ve had wave after wave after wave of skinheads, boneheads, “Rock Against Communism”-types, Holocaust deniers, fascists, neo-Nazis, nativists, “identitarians,” “racial realists,” “counter-jihadists,” etc., etc. _ad nauseam_, from Greece to Norway to Austria and Spain. > > But hey, I’m sure they’re all teddy bears at heart, because fuck Putin amirite. Since the behavior you are describing describes exactly what Putin supporters do in both Russia and have done in Crimea I’m assuming you are acknowledging Putin himself is a fascist then, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1443 "2014-03-17T18:13:05Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > My problem is with those who, like **Martin Hyde** , spread falsehoods about there being “essentially no fascist/Nazi presence in Ukraine.” Same thing when people try to deny Svoboda’s extremely troubling fascist roots, and/or look the other way when fascists worm their way into the new Ukrainian government, or act as if this isn’t something to worry about. You’re the only one spreading falsehoods, by basically parroting Kremlin propaganda. Fascist is more than just being far right and being nationalist. Fascist is an epithet, it is has a status throughout most of the world akin to the way the word Communist is used in America. In America communism isn’t a political ideology, it’s a term synonymous with Stalinism (I don’t agree with it being used that way, but that is how it is used here.) In Russia fascism is a term synonymous with Nazism–and not just a “neutral” political ideology. I hold that Nazism, what a Putin really means when he says fascists, has essentially no significant presence in Ukraine. Svoboda is not a Nazi party. People don’t hate fascism because of the economic or pro-nation ideology, they hate fascism because of death camps, wars of aggression, removal of civil rights for citizens, and despotism. I don’t see any of that in Svoboda today, Svoboda does not advocate a revolution to overturn the state. Hitler’s party openly advocated turning Germany into a different state because of the “weakness of Weimar.” ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1444 "2014-03-17T18:28:43Z")
97% pro-Russian vote with 80% turnout is about as convincing as the recent unanimous ratification vote for Kim Jong-Un in North Korea. If you’re going to the effort of rigging an election why wouldn’t you rig it to a believable number, say 73% or so which would still be a huge mandate and wouldn’t obviously be completely fake? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1445 "2014-03-17T18:30:41Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Ukraine has two revognized Presidents. One properly elected and never properly impeached recognized by Crimea. The other was appointed by militant > Take-over and recognized by Eastern Ukraine. Recognised by the Verkhovna Rada, they make the laws. You’re right that they haven’r impeached him, but, once the president leaves the country without oficial reasons, he is unable to discharge his functions. He is no longer president Ukraine. The Crimeans can recognise whomever they want as president, it doens’t make it so. But, of course, since apparently the Crimeans are not Ukrainian, their opinion doesn’t matter. There is only one president of Ukraine, it ain’t Yanukovych. > [@](#): > > So do you support permitting the anti-EU Side setting up camp in Kiev to try to bring down the appointed President by protest and perhaps throwing Molotov cocktails at police in order to have their way? Protest? Hell, yes. Molotov cocktails? No. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1446 "2014-03-17T18:33:45Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > 97% pro-Russian vote with 80% turnout is about as convincing as the recent unanimous ratification vote for Kim Jong-Un in North Korea. If you’re going to the effort of rigging an election why wouldn’t you rig it to a believable number, say 73% or so which would still be a huge mandate and wouldn’t obviously be completely fake? The people who this is aimed at are used to and expect those sorts of numbers, and anything less would throw the whole thing into serious question in their minds. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1447 "2014-03-17T18:42:47Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The people who this is aimed at are used to and expect those sorts of numbers, and anything less would throw the whole thing into serious question in their minds. Perhaps. But you couldn’t actually get 97% vote in a free and fair referendum on ‘Kittens are cute: Yes or no?’ It might help them in the domestic setting, but as an argument for Western nations to accept the annexation without any diplomatic repercussions it’s worse than useless because no one from an actual democratic nation can look at that result without rolling their eyes. So are you saying that the referendum charade is for internal Russian consumption? Seems kind of pointless given the stranglehold Putin already has on domestic political discourse. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1448 "2014-03-17T18:54:38Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Perhaps. But you couldn’t actually get 97% vote in a free and fair referendum on ‘Kittens are cute: Yes or no?’ It might help them in the domestic setting, but as an argument for Western nations to accept the annexation without any diplomatic repercussions it’s worse than useless because no one from an actual democratic nation can look at that result without rolling their eyes. So are you saying that the referendum charade is for internal Russian consumption? Seems kind of pointless given the stranglehold Putin already has on domestic political discourse. Of course, Putin isn’t a pluralist, Western democrat. What a Western audience finds believable or skeptical is not what a Russian audience believes. It’s the fault of most people to project upon other societies the same political standards they themselves have. It’s why so many people are shocked and amazed when experiments to impose a Western-style democracy upon countries like Iraq don’t work out, or why it baffles people that most Chinese are okay with the way China is governed. That works in reverse, too. Russia is a country where the political climate is such that people put great stock in having a strongman leader and where paranoia and mistrust is standard, so they assume we’re the same way. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1449 "2014-03-17T18:55:08Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Perhaps. But you couldn’t actually get 97% vote in a free and fair referendum on ‘Kittens are cute: Yes or no?’ It might help them in the domestic setting, but as an argument for Western nations to accept the annexation without any diplomatic repercussions it’s worse than useless because no one from an actual democratic nation can look at that result without rolling their eyes. So are you saying that the referendum charade is for internal Russian consumption? Seems kind of pointless given the stranglehold Putin already has on domestic political discourse. It’s definitely for Russian internal consumption…and Crimean as well (though since Crimean will be a state sometime this week, it’s sort of moot). It will also fool just enough of the people in the West (just look at this thread) to help, but the primary aim is for their own people, who expect numbers like that and would be uneasy with anything less. Numbers like we and the Europeans (and other democracies) actually get would blow their populations away and would be extremely difficult for them to adapt too quickly. Imagine what they would think of the Bush/Gore or Bush/Kerry election numbers…or, hell, even the ‘landslide’ victories of Regan or Clinton. The point though is to send that internal signal that the government (i.e. Putin) is strong and in control and that the people are behind him. A very Soviet era result. That said, I have no doubt that the proposition would still have passed even without the obvious inflation. Probably by as much or even more than 60%. Remember that the proposition was simply whether the Crimea should be independent or part of Russia (no status quo option). Even assuming a non-zero minority population and a dissident faction, in a largely Russian speaking population that also has historic ties to Russia where the choices are independent nation state (crushed between a now hostile Ukraine and Russia) and becoming a state in a more powerful nation (that, again, the population has ties too) that can ‘protect’ you, a lot of folks are going to go that way regardless. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1450 "2014-03-17T19:00:18Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So you think Medvedyev/Putin in 2008 had Russian soldiers and South Ossetia civilians deliberately killed by Georgian rockets and artillery by provoking that attack by the Georgian army? Of course; Russia wanted Georgia to attack, gave them every opportunity to do so, and sure enough the Georgians, stupidly and immorally, did exactly that. Georgia’s actions were astoundingly bone-headed, but make no mistake, it was to Russia’s delight. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1451 "2014-03-17T19:05:02Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > My opinion is that fascist is as fascist does. … And ideology plays no role whatsoever? > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Since the behavior you are describing describes exactly what Putin supporters do in both Russia and have done in Crimea I’m assuming you are acknowledging Putin himself is a fascist then, correct? Putin is a thug, no doubt about it - and no doubt many of his supporters are fascists, and no doubt many of the tactics he employs have also been employed in fascist dictatorship. But to the best of my knowledge, neither he, nor his party, is _ideologically_ fascist. They do not, as far as I know, praise Nazi war criminals (as Oleh Tyahnybok did as late as 2010) or distribute books by the likes of Joseph Goebbels (as Svoboda did as late as 2013). > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You’re the only one spreading falsehoods, by basically parroting Kremlin propaganda. Which falsehoods, exactly? Be specific. And speaking of falsehoods: Will you please explain why you claimed that “they [Svoboda] kicked out a previous leader that made racist comments directed at Russians and Jews,” when, in fact, Oleh Tyahnybok remains the party’s leader to this day? Why did you claim that, when that it clearly not true? Were you mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1452 "2014-03-17T19:19:32Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Just to be clear CarnalK made the untrue claim that I have painted the Ukrainians as fascists. I have proven the opposite is my view on that. You “proved” that you said the Russian version of fascists is exaggerated. I still think you lean on that side. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1453 "2014-03-17T19:19:51Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > 97% pro-Russian vote with 80% turnout is about as convincing as the recent unanimous ratification vote for Kim Jong-Un in North Korea. If you’re going to the effort of rigging an election why wouldn’t you rig it to a believable number, say 73% or so which would still be a huge mandate and wouldn’t obviously be completely fake? It sounds a bit high, especially the turnout, but do you really know for a fact that it is rigged? The outcome was never in doubt, so why go to the trouble of rigging? The 2010 election saw the pro-Russian Yanukovic get more than 1 million Crimea votes out of a about 1.5 million registered voters. That’s more than 80% of the votes assuming a voter turnout of 80% (I don’t know what the turnout was, probably lower than 80%). The current referendum was boycotted by some groups that were opposed, so one should expect the yes percentage to be higher. And I expect a popular referendum over the future of the nation would attract more voters than a regular election about which corrupt self-serving politician to send to Kiev this time. I don’t know. Can’t say for sure that it is rigged. It is a pity we missed the chance to ever know for sure. Although there were many other problems with the referendum. Anyway, the only thing to do now is find a way to move forward, because there is no going back. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1454 "2014-03-17T19:24:36Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > It’s an arguable case although it admits of no resolution, of course. And, no, not every issue but do you honestly think that Putin and the Kremlin haven’t made a thorough assessment of Obama and factored it into their thinking? In affairs of this consequence the reaction of the world’s only superpower does matter. Of course, but the main reasoning would be that the USA doesn’t have a big enough stake to go to the mattresses, not whether the President is weak. Truly, that’s silly. Every single American President has lobbed bombs and imposed sanctions. Russia isn’t saying now “Oooh, finally one who won’t do anything!” That would be irrational. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1455 "2014-03-17T19:37:32Z")
Especially considering that Obama has hardly been a pacifist president. It’s not like he’s let the world walk all over America’s interests without any action. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1456 "2014-03-17T19:52:16Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > … And ideology plays no role whatsoever? Some of the most hateful acts of the last century were undertaken (ironically enough, in part in Ukraine) by a nation that, outwardly at least, had an ideology of universal brotherhood of humanity. In short, I’ll take “actual deeds” over “ideology” any day. Now, in Ukraine, the situation is complicated by the fact that the area was ground into hamburger in the last century between the twin totalitarian regimes of Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia - I recommend the book _Bloodlands_ on this, as well as _Savage Continent_ for the immediate post-war period. The Soviets had the place first and enacted a horrible massacre, in part to crush Ukrainian nationalism. Then, a decade later, the Nazis invaded. Part of the Nazi plan was to attempt to use local nationalists as ‘useful idiots’ - much as the Russian Stalinists attempted to use local communists. Some Ukrainian nationalists took the bait and aided the Nazis in their crimes. Such were the fascist roots of Ukrainian fringe ultra-nationalists. Many of them went on fighting against the Soviets in a hopeless guerilla war into the '50s (which also occurred in the Baltic nations, btw). It is hardly a unique story, as the same could be said for right-wing nationalists and communists all over Europe - each got caught up in the crimes of the twin totalitarian colossi, some on one side, some on the other. Few emerged from that war looking morally good. However, to condemn Ukraine today, because a small percentage of its government is composed of right-wing nationalists, is just silly - particularly when (a) the same is true in many European nations, (b) left-wing Communists are equally ‘tainted’ by their acts during and after WW2, and most especially (c) right now the Russian and pro-Russian side is actually doing the bad shit that fascists were hated for. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1457 "2014-03-17T20:12:30Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Especially considering that Obama has hardly been a pacifist president. It’s not like he’s let the world walk all over America’s interests without any action. Oh, sure. He sends a SEAL team in to assassinate an enemy leader in an allied country, but what has he done lately?!? Weak! ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1458 "2014-03-17T20:17:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > However, to condemn Ukraine today, because a small percentage of its government is composed of right-wing nationalists, is just silly - particularly when (a) the same is true in many European nations, (b) left-wing Communists are equally ‘tainted’ by their acts during and after WW2, and most especially (c) right now the Russian and pro-Russian side is actually doing the bad shit that fascists were hated for. I don’t “condemn” Ukraine, so I have no idea where you’re getting that from. As I have explained, I worry about the fact that there are fascists in its government. That “the same is true in many European nations” (care to mention a few examples?) doesn’t change that. Neither does the fact that “left-wing Communists” (are there any other kind?) did horrible things during and after WW2. As for Russia doing “the bad shit that fascists were hated for,” this is partly true, but only partly. Annexing bits and pieces of neighboring countries, with or without bloodshed? Yes, they both did/do that. Attempting to physically exterminate entire peoples? No, Putin doesn’t do that. And of these two bad things, it was primarily the latter for which the fascists of yesteryear were hated. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1459 "2014-03-17T20:27:41Z")
Empty posturing, nothing else to be done. Have to say the Obama/Kerry hypocrisy has been hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1460 "2014-03-17T20:28:03Z")
[QUOTE=Steken] That “the same is true in many European nations” (care to mention a few examples?) doesn’t change that. [/QUOTE] Why? Seems to me that if you are worried about fascists then you should worry about the fact that just about every European government that has a few right wing factions in their government make up. > [@](#): > > As for Russia doing “the bad shit that fascists were hated for,” this is partly true, but only partly. Annexing bits and pieces of neighboring countries, with or without bloodshed? Yes. Attempting to physically exterminate entire peoples? No. And of these two bad things, it was primarily the latter for which the fascists of yesteryear were hated. Seems apples to oranges to me. You are taking the fact that fascist governments in the past (mostly the Nazi in Germany) exterminated entire peoples as comparable to the fact that right now, today, Russia is basically annexing a large piece of an independent state. The fraction of right wing representation in the Ukrainian government is pretty small, but even if it were overwhelming, well, how many people have they exterminated to date? BTW, Communists were also known for exterminating peoples in the past as well…you should look up the fate of the people who used to inhabit the Crimea in the past, and why it’s got a large concentration of Russian speakers and sympathizers today as just one of many examples. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=72) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=74)