# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 74
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1461 "2014-03-17T20:38:49Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > As for Russia doing “the bad shit that fascists were hated for,” this is partly true, but only partly. Annexing bits and pieces of neighboring countries, with or without bloodshed? Yes, they both did/do that. Attempting to physically exterminate entire peoples? No, Putin doesn’t do that. And of these two bad things, it was primarily the latter for which the fascists of yesteryear were hated. Have any of what you call “fascists” in the Ukraine advocated or done those things? Though I would say annexing territory is not part of what makes a fascist. Merely what certain fascists did. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1462 "2014-03-17T20:45:07Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > I don’t “condemn” Ukraine, so I have no idea where you’re getting that from. From the fact that, of the two sides, you have apparently chosen only to “worry” about the one? > [@](#): > > As I have explained, I worry about the fact that there are fascists in its government. That “the same is true in many European nations” (care to mention a few examples?) doesn’t change that. What it does, is demonstrate that having right-wing nationalists around isn’t a particularly rational reason to go chicken-little on us. > [@](#): > > Neither does the fact that “left-wing Communists” (are there any other kind?) did horrible things during and after WW2. Ditto. Various groups can be smeared for the bad shit that went down in the last century. Why not look to what they are actually doing right now, and worry about that instead? I know, I know, because by any rational measure, that would condemn Russia and its sympathizers, not Ukraine. I mean _besides_ that. > [@](#): > > As for Russia doing “the bad shit that fascists were hated for,” this is partly true, but only partly. Annexing bits and pieces of neighboring countries, with or without bloodshed? Yes, they both did/do that. Attempting to physically exterminate entire peoples? No, Putin doesn’t do that. And of these two bad things, it was primarily the latter for which the fascists of yesteryear were hated. Sure. Well, that an suppressing the press, murdering journalists, indulging in sham “referendums” and the like. So far, Putin hasn’t actually massacred entire peoples, no. Nor do I think he’s likely to - other than those who get wasted should his aggressions break out into open warfare. And the evidence that the Ukrainian ultra-nationalist fringe is, as you put it, “Attempting to physically exterminate entire peoples” is exactly … ? What, nothing? I thought so. What, exactly, are you “worried” about? Spell it out. Is your concern that these ultra-nationalists are planning some sort of pogrom or massacre? As in “Attempting to physically exterminate entire peoples”? Because right now, that ain’t looking very likely. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1463 "2014-03-17T20:50:44Z")
MCain is quoted as saying, “We must commit to the ultimate return of Crimea to Ukraine, just as we promised to the so called captive that they would eventually be free of Soviet domination.” Would Putin’s critics in this thread agree with him? Because basically he’s saying that the Crimeans should be returned to Ukrainian rule even if the great majority of the people are completely opposed to such a return. What sort of ‘liberation’ would this be? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1464 "2014-03-17T20:57:19Z")
Well, I suppose the argument would be they should return to Ukraine and then they could go through a referendum not done under Russian occupation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1465 "2014-03-17T20:57:32Z")
Well, if we’re committed to returning Crimea to Ukraine “just as we promised to the so called captive that they would eventually be free of Soviet domination”, then it would be an empty, meaningless commitment. > [@CarnalK](#): > > Well, I suppose the argument would be they should return to Ukraine and then they could go through a referendum not done under Russian occupation. …And with the option of independence. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1466 "2014-03-17T20:59:08Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > MCain is quoted as saying, “We must commit to the ultimate return of Crimea to Ukraine, just as we promised to the so called captive that they would eventually be free of Soviet domination.” Would Putin’s critics in this thread agree with him? Because basically he’s saying that the Crimeans should be returned to Ukrainian rule even if the great majority of the people are completely opposed to such a return. > > What sort of ‘liberation’ would this be? Well, if it’s actually true that the majority of people in the Crimea want to break away and join the Russians, then all it would mean is another vote (this time without the Russians blockading Ukrainian military bases or ports, and without Russian troops on the streets of the major cities in the Crimea…stuff like that). So, it would just be a more above board validation of their actual desire to break away. Personally, I think McCain is blowing a lot of hot air. There really is not much the US can or would do to force the Russians to take a step back at this point. It’s pretty much a done deal, slimy as this whole affair has been. All the US can do at this point is move forward…which, to me, is to get the Euros to impose as harsh sanctions as they will stomach (translation: not very harsh, considering how hard sanctions would hurt our European cousins), and perhaps try and move the rest of the Ukraine more into the Western European sphere of influence, maybe allow them to join NATO. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1467 "2014-03-17T21:02:37Z")
There is more the US could do though to bolster European will. They could open up American oil exports, for one. If they wanted to go nuts they could promise funds to offset European economic damage done by a sanction war. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1468 "2014-03-17T21:10:16Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > MCain is quoted as saying, “We must commit to the ultimate return of Crimea to Ukraine, just as we promised to the so called captive that they would eventually be free of Soviet domination.” Would Putin’s critics in this thread agree with him? Because basically he’s saying that the Crimeans should be returned to Ukrainian rule even if the great majority of the people are completely opposed to such a return. > > What sort of ‘liberation’ would this be? It may very well be that a properly constituted referendum undertaken by a fair voting process with a question that clearly offered the alternative between staying part of Ukraine and joining Russia, undertaken under the supervision of neutral referees in the absence of armed intimidation by any faction would have decided in favour of joining Russia. However, that’s not what we have, not even close. Until such a time as this exists, the “referendum” held under Russian guns, with a question that did not offer a return to the status quo, unsupervised by any neutral parties, is rightfully regarded by every world power save Russia as competely illegitimate, and its siezure as foreign aggression - not the will of the indigenous population. Under these circumstances, the only right answer is to work to undo the aggression. To do otherwise simply legitimizes future aggressions by Russia (and countries like Russia) - there are lots of countries that have ethnic Russians in them. The notion that every seperatist group ought to be given a mandate for a referendum to seperate is unworkable - look at Russia itself: there are several Russian provinces that, if allowed, would seperate. In reality, what it means is every group _that has the backing of a power willing to make a credible military threat_ has such a mandate - making it open season for strong countries to prey on the weak. This is doubly true where the strong don’t even make a pretense, as in Crimea, of making the vote in any way procedurally fair. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1469 "2014-03-17T21:35:47Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Why? Seems to me that if you are worried about fascists then you should worry about the fact that just about every European government that has a few right wing factions in their government make up. As I have repeated many, many, many times, _I do worry about fascism all over Europe_. > [@XT](#): > > You are taking the fact that fascist governments in the past (mostly the Nazi in Germany) exterminated entire peoples as comparable to the fact that right now, today, Russia is basically annexing a large piece of an independent state. The fraction of right wing representation in the Ukrainian government is pretty small, but even if it were overwhelming, well, how many people have they exterminated to date? Were the fraction of fascist representation in the Ukrainian government to become “overwhelming,” no doubt Ukraine’s minorities would be put through a living hell: If not exterminated outright (_very_ unlikely, considering the fascists would have the eyes of the world on them), then harshly oppressed and/or driven out the country. > [@XT](#): > > Communists were also known for exterminating peoples in the past as well…you should look up the fate of the people who used to inhabit the Crimea in the past, and why it’s got a large concentration of Russian speakers and sympathizers today as just one of many examples. I am well aware of the fact that Communists “were also known for exterminating peoples.” Were Communists growing in power and influence in Ukraine or elsewhere, I would worry about that, too. > [@CarnalK](#): > > Have any of what you call “fascists” in the Ukraine advocated or done those things? Yes. They have most certainly _advocated_ such things, and they have most certainly glorified those who, in the past, did such things. > [@CarnalK](#): > > Though I would say annexing territory is not part of what makes a fascist. Merely what certain fascists did. Agreed. > [@Malthus](#): > > … you have apparently chosen only to “worry” about the one? Where have you gotten the idea that I only worry about “the one”? I worry about both Ukrainian fascism and Russian aggression. > [@Malthus](#): > > What, exactly, are you “worried” about? Spell it out. As I said: That were the fraction of fascist representation in the Ukrainian government to become “overwhelming,” no doubt Ukraine’s minorities would be put through a living hell: If not exterminated outright (_very_ unlikely, considering the fascists would have the eyes of the world on them), then harshly oppressed and/or driven out the country. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1470 "2014-03-17T21:36:40Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Of course; Russia wanted Georgia to attack, gave them every opportunity to do so, and sure enough the Georgians, stupidly and immorally, did exactly that. Georgia’s actions were astoundingly bone-headed, but make no mistake, it was to Russia’s delight. That is absurd. You accuse Russian leadership had planned and wanted Georgia to attack with heavy artillery and armored units and to kill some Russian Federation troops plus civilians who were sitting ducks for the kind of weapons and armor Sakaashvilli sent into South Ossetia that night. I see you are capable of believing anything about Putin if it makes him out to be evil. Deliberately using his own troops as sacrificial bait in order to be delighted about attacking the idiot Sakaashvilli is really out there. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1471 "2014-03-17T21:56:57Z")
[QUOTE=Steken] As I have repeated many, many, many times, I do worry about fascism all over Europe. [/QUOTE] Um…ok. I suppose given the record of many European nations it’s a valid worry. Why are you more worried about the Ukraine? The percentage of ‘fascists’ in their government is on par with many other European nations and is really an artifact of how many countries over there do representational elections instead of the winner take all method in the US (which is why we have 2 big parties and many smaller parties that don’t ever get elected, while Europeans have a lot of 3rd parties with a few seats of representation, even of extreme parties like actual fascists…or communists). > [@](#): > > Were the fraction of fascist representation in the Ukrainian government to become “overwhelming,” no doubt Ukraine’s minorities would be put through a living hell: If not exterminated outright (very unlikely, considering the fascists would have the eyes of the world on them), then harshly oppressed and/or driven out the country. That all seems extremely fanciful. Do you worry about fascists becoming overwhelming in France too, and then exterminating everyone? How about in the UK? I know you said you worry about it in the rest of Europe, but it seems you are more worried about the Ukraine for some reason. While you are worrying about this seemingly low priority outcome, you seem more complacent with what Russia is actually doing, to get back to the comparison with deeds verse possibilities. > [@](#): > > I am well aware of the fact that Communists “were also known for exterminating peoples.” Were Communists growing in power and influence in Ukraine or elsewhere, I would worry about that, too. You’d have a point (of sorts) if fascists were growing in power in the Ukraine or anywhere else…and if the fascists in said country had a track record of actually doing all of those dastardly things. I’m not seeing where this worry is coming from though, at least wrt the Ukraine…while I DO see a formerly communist and still pretty autocratic nation actually doing some fairly bad shit. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1472 "2014-03-17T22:21:33Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Protest? Hell, yes. Molotov cocktails? No. But the Pro-EU protesters did not move much until the Molotov Cocktails started flying. So a pro-Russian protest in Kiev would be stopped if the use of Molotov Cocktails were to be introduced. Is that how it would work? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1473 "2014-03-17T22:42:59Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well, I suppose the argument would be they should return to Ukraine and then they could go through a referendum not done under Russian occupation. That could be an option but the vote would have to be limited to Crimean citizens participation alone. But that most likely would also bring a result that Crimea rejoins Russia without the glory of bashing Putin. So the Ukraine Constitution will not likely change to ever give Crimeans the right of self-determination. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1474 "2014-03-17T22:59:20Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That could be an option but the vote would have to be limited to Crimean citizens participation alone. But that most likely would also bring a result that Crimea rejoins Russia without the glory of bashing Putin. So the Ukraine Constitution will not likely change to ever give Crimeans the right of self-determination. The glory of bashing Putin is easily had, if you don’t live in a certain country where you get arrested or mysteriously murdered for it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1475 "2014-03-17T23:47:18Z")
Putin has some more good advice for those interested in more choice for all of Ukrain’es citizens. > [@](#): > > Moscow, meanwhile, called on Ukraine to become a federal state as a way of resolving the polarization between Ukraine’s western regions — which favor closer ties with the 28-nation EU — and its eastern areas, which have long ties to Russia. > > In a statement Monday, Russia’s Foreign Ministry urged Ukraine’s parliament to call a constitutional assembly that could draft a new constitution to make the country federal, handing more power to its regions. It also said country should adopt a “neutral political and military status,” a demand reflecting Moscow’s concern about the prospect of Ukraine joining NATO and possibly integrating closer politically and economically with the EU. [http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/putin-signs-decree-crimea-independent](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/putin-signs-decree-crimea-independent) Why must all of Ukraine whatever way the Molotov Cocktail throwing crowd wants? It makes sense that the West of Ukraine could have close ties to the EU and the East of Ukraine could have close ties to Russia. Why not let the free market and regional elections decide things instead of all this ‘winner take all’ crap that has been going on since 1992? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1476 "2014-03-17T23:55:32Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The glory of bashing Putin is easily had, if you don’t live in a certain country where you get arrested or mysteriously murdered for it. Who has Putin ‘murdered’ for bashing him? Do you have a case? ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1477 "2014-03-18T00:05:17Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I suppose given the record of many European nations it’s a valid worry. Why are you more worried about the Ukraine? Do I have to say it again? _I worry about fascism all over Europe._ Am I “more worried about the Ukraine”? More worried about Ukrainian fascism than about Icelandic fascism? Yes. More worried about Ukrainian fascism than about Greek fascism? Nah, about the same level. > [@XT](#): > > The percentage of ‘fascists’ in their government is on par with many other European nations Really? Fairly few European countries have fascists in their governments, thank God, though lots of European countries have fascist (or quasi-fascist) parties on the rise. > [@XT](#): > > That all seems extremely fanciful. Do you worry about fascists becoming overwhelming in France too, and then exterminating everyone? How about in the UK? Getting more and more power and influence, and so making life shitty for us minorities? Yes, in both France and the UK and plenty of other countries. “Exterminating everyone”? No. > [@XT](#): > > I know you said you worry about it in the rest of Europe, but it seems you are more worried about the Ukraine for some reason. This thread is about Ukraine, so that’s why I write more about that, than, say, The Golden Dawn down in Greece - a party whose growing influence also worries me. > [@XT](#): > > You’d have a point (of sorts) if fascists were growing in power in the Ukraine They are. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1478 "2014-03-18T00:16:33Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Who has Putin ‘murdered’ for bashing him? Do you have a case? Cite for where I accused Putin of murdering anyone? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1479 "2014-03-18T01:01:09Z")
I wrote, _"Just to be clear CarnalK made the untrue claim that I have painted the Ukrainians as fascists. I have proven the opposite is my view on that_." On 03-17-2014 at 03:19 PM CarnalK had this response: > [@](#): > > You “proved” that you said the Russian version of fascists is exaggerated. I still think you lean on that side. Sorry. So now you admit that I did write that the Russians are exaggerating the presence of Fascists in the Ukraine’s government and protest movement. So why did you write this? Yes I said the Russian version of fascists is exaggerated. I also said they were wrong. So why on earth would you convert those statements into this: 03-15-2014 07:31 PM CarnalK wrote: > [@](#): > > In context, you said there was a collapse of law that let fascists takeover. I have never said anything close to ‘there was a collapse of law that let fascists takeover’. Why would you say that I did? Don’t you try to base your comments about what posters write on what people actually write? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1480 "2014-03-18T01:05:11Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Cite for where I accused Putin of murdering anyone? On 03-17-2014 at 06:59 PM You wrote exactly this: > [@](#): > > The glory of bashing Putin is easily had, if you don’t live in a certain country where you get arrested or mysteriously murdered for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=73) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=75)