# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 75
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1481 "2014-03-18T01:29:22Z")
On 03-17-2014 at 01:35 PM Human Action wrote: > [@](#): > > Also, a popular uprising isn’t the same as a coup d’etat. Really the events at the end of February which forced the elected President of Ukraine to flee for his life to Russia was not a sudden violent overthrow of his government and a clear cut seizure of political power largely by the means of violence. Yanukovich’s government was seized by the mob and sympathetic legislators sympathetic to the mob who 'changed the direction with whom the constitutionally elected government wanted to seek a trade agreement. Does it make you feel better to call \*overthrowing the elected government \*a popular uprising? Did those people of Crimea and eastern areas of Ukraine participate in or have a say in your 'popular uprising that led to a clear violation of the Constitution to install a new president without constitutionally impeaching the one that was elected? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1482 "2014-03-18T02:42:03Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > On 03-17-2014 at 01:35 PM Human Action wrote: > > Really the events at the end of February which forced the elected President of Ukraine to flee for his life to Russia was not a sudden violent overthrow of his government and a clear cut seizure of political power largely by the means of violence. Yanukovich’s government was seized by the mob and sympathetic legislators sympathetic to the mob who 'changed the direction with whom the constitutionally elected government wanted to seek a trade agreement. > > Does it make you feel better to call \*overthrowing the elected government \*a popular uprising? > > Did those people of Crimea and eastern areas of Ukraine participate in or have a say in your 'popular uprising that led to a clear violation of the Constitution to install a new president without constitutionally impeaching the one that was elected? Remember, the code is [noparse] > [@Poster you're quoting](#): > > Text [/noparse] What defines a coup isn’t violence (surely you’ve heard of a [“bloodless coup”](http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/1/newsid_3911000/3911587.stm)), but the nature of the change in power. A coup is characterized by part of the existing government - typically, but not always, the military - overthrowing and replacing the executive part. That’s not what happened in Ukraine. The events there would properly be termed a popular uprising, or revolution. And note, “popular” doesn’t mean “all the people”; remember the popular revolution that preceded the coup of Morsi in Egypt? It wasn’t unanimous either, yet you didn’t criticize it on those grounds. My motive isn’t “feeling better”, but accuracy; it was an addendum to my post suggesting that your use of John McCain as a proxy for the Western world was misguided. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1483 "2014-03-18T03:04:14Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Empty posturing, nothing else to be done. > > Have to say the Obama/Kerry hypocrisy has been hilarious. Agreed sort of like all those idiot Brits whining like bitches about Hitler invading the Sudetenland when Churchill and the rest of those English and French pigs were busy carving up Asia and Africa in support of white Supremacy. After all, what was Chrchill saying. “Hey do as we say, not as we do!” ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1484 "2014-03-18T03:17:08Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > But the Pro-EU protesters did not move much until the Molotov Cocktails started flying. So a pro-Russian protest in Kiev would be stopped if the use of Molotov Cocktails were to be introduced. Is that how it would work? Even though I’d like to see a cite for “Pro-EU protesters did not move much until the Molotov Cocktails started flying” and also remingding everyone that any government that falls after a couple of MC is an extremly weak governemt, I am not even remotely suggesting that the pro-Ukrainian protesters were 100% in Gandhi-mode. If pro-being-a-puppet-of-another-country protesters want to protest peacefully and these protests bring down the government, then more power to them. In my country, president Fujimori overstayed his welcomed by bending/breaking the rules. After a couple of 99% peaceful protests he fled the country. 3 years before, the same protests wouldn’t have made Fujimori even lose a sneeze. Such is the power of democracy, of the actual “demos” doing some “kratos”, sometimes skirting the fullest extent of the law for quicker solution. Sometimes the course of democracy hits some bumps. The English killed, illegally, Charles I. He had betrayed his country and called foreign invaders, but he was king and there was no power over him. I’m not Cromwell’s fan (in fact I 'm cloeser ideologically to Charles) but the will of the people is not always 100% lawful. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1485 "2014-03-18T04:27:21Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > On 03-17-2014 at 06:59 PM You wrote exactly this: I merely said that a certain country is more dangerous than others if you want to bash Putin. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1486 "2014-03-18T07:17:38Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Under these circumstances, the only right answer is to work to undo the aggression. To do otherwise simply legitimizes future aggressions by Russia (and countries like Russia) - there are lots of countries that have ethnic Russians in them. > > The notion that every seperatist group ought to be given a mandate for a referendum to seperate is unworkable - look at Russia itself: there are several Russian provinces that, if allowed, would seperate. In reality, what it means is every group _that has the backing of a power willing to make a credible military threat_ has such a mandate - making it open season for strong countries to prey on the weak. This is doubly true where the strong don’t even make a pretense, as in Crimea, of making the vote in any way procedurally fair. The West set the precedent with Kosovo, etc. It might not seem so to you for all kinds of excellent reasons, but it hardly matters because it very much seems so to the other side. And predictable so. And if the only way forward you see is going back to the previous situation, then you’re into for a very long standoff because a return of Crimea to Ukraine is not going to happen. But a long standoff is not going to happen either, because US interests are very badly served by a semi-enemy relation to Russia. You need a cooperative Russia next time the shit hits the fan in Syria, Iran, Korea, Venezuela or wherever. Then all matters of Crimea will be quickly forgotten. - Knock-knock. - Who’s there? - Crimean referendum - Oh, I’m sorry, didn’t recognize you. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1487 "2014-03-18T09:29:49Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > However, to condemn Ukraine today, because a small percentage of its government is composed of right-wing nationalists, is just silly - particularly when (a) the same is true in many European nations, (b) left-wing Communists are equally ‘tainted’ by their acts during and after WW2, and most especially (c) right now the Russian and pro-Russian side is actually doing the bad shit that fascists were hated for. You were doing so well until you got to the ‘however’, Its a standoff today between the military capability of let’s say East and West with Crimea being the rope in the tug of war. You have to argue that there is no or very little effective desire among ethnic Russians living in Crimea to call what many of them in majority are doing and supporting as the only ‘bad shit’ going on here. The pro-Russia Crimeans have a justified bitch in this stand-off because they have never been given right of self determination for the boundary in which they choose to live. It was one man that decided their border in 1954. He had no right to decree that for all of eternity. That was a ‘bad shit’ decision made by one of the two totalitarian regimes involved in the massive slaughter of the 1940’s. Today the ‘bad shit’ thus far in terms violence committed is on the West’s side. If you look at the underlying situation as a bid to correct a bad decision made in 1954 then the East’s side can be seen as using the threat of force to rectify that bad decision in 1855. Contrary to what many say here there is no way for the majority in Crimea to have self-determination without the backing of the threat of force from Russia. Crimeans had no self-determination fir independent statehood and in February they lost to ‘bad shit’ in Kiev their elected representative and top leader to the West’s side. That was a violent means to deny Crimeans their constitutional right to representative government. There is a cause - effect - and hopefully a peaceful result to this episode in history that the threat of force has made happen. The world will not end with Crimea going back to Russia. It’s time for the west to let it go and begin to do constructive work for east and west Ukrainians evenly not favoring one group over the other. East and West Ukrainians have not worked out huge polarizing differences. It is time for outsiders to intervene only with both sides of that divide to be forcefully represented. Agitating one side against the other is bad shit in my view and east and west powers both are guilty. How about demanding out governments work to stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1488 "2014-03-18T09:43:13Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The pro-Russia Crimeans have a justified bitch in this stand-off because they have never been given right of self determination for the boundary in which they choose to live. And neither have they been given that choice now. Sunday’s referendum did not allow people to vote for the status quo, and it could be argued that the two valid options given to them would amount to independence. It’s essentially like hosting a dinner party and offering your guests a choice of chicken or beef. Many will be happy, the vegetarians will go hungry. ---
**Author:** ![Anondragon2012](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anondragon2012](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anondragon2012)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1489 "2014-03-18T09:44:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Agreed sort of like all those idiot Brits whining like bitches about Hitler invading the Sudetenland when Churchill and the rest of those English and French pigs were busy carving up Asia and Africa in support of white Supremacy. > > After all, what was Chrchill saying. > > “Hey do as we say, not as we do!” The best part was when the Atlantic charter was signed by the Allies in 1941 to ideologically oppose the Nazis “in the name of Freedom against Fascists”. The charter contained clauses such as **“all people have a right to self-determination”** which caused major embarrassment as soon representatives from all over the Third world (India, North Africa, Asia) came knocking on Churchill’s door and said “Oh by the way does this apply to us colonial slaves too?”. UK and France quietly tried to hush up the total contradiction in their words and status quo. But the damage was evident. To be honest the West has always been hypocritical about its ideology. Like Goering said “I decide who is a Jew in Germany”, to the West now its “I decide who is a fascist and a racist”. Essentially if you support Israel you will never be racist. As to this current state of affairs, this is Machtpolitik 101. The Russians make a move in their backyard. Is there anybody with THE MEANS to oppose them in the West? Ideology plays no part in this. I’ll tell you the “Allies” certainly won’t make Ukraine the new “Poland” over this. There will be some sanctions but overall appeasement will prevail. I gotta say Putin is a Lion that puts Hitler to shame ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1490 "2014-03-18T09:46:14Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I merely said that a certain country is more dangerous than others if you want to bash Putin. The way you put it was that they are murdered for bashing Putin. That certainly sounds as if Putin has assassins go around and murder anyone who bashes him. If you simply meant its dangerous to bash Putin inside Russia are you implicating Putin in any of that and if you are you need to bring a legitimate cast or all that is essentially is unfounded Putin bashing. If you are not implicating Putin for making Russia such a dangerous place then you don’t need to make your case. Russia has a dangerous political element about it that is indeed worse than more established democracies. But it is not as bad as you make it out to be for the sake of the discussion here. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1491 "2014-03-18T09:53:50Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Russia has a dangerous political element about it that is indeed worse than more established democracies. But it is not as bad as you make it out to be for the sake of the discussion here. Russia is classed as being in a ‘Difficult Situation’ (similar to Mexico’s or Venezuela’s) in the Press Freedom Index. The Freedom in the World Scale lists Russia as ‘not free’. According to the Democracy Index, Russia is an authoritarian regime. The Political Terror Scale gives Russia a score of 4 out of 5, meaning that “Murders, disappearances,and torture are a common part of life”. What distorted plane of reality do you live in, where Russia is “not as bad”? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1492 "2014-03-18T09:58:33Z")
People keep saying that the majority of Crimeans want independence. But is it true? [FiveThirtyEight weighs in](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/many-signs-pointed-to-crimea-independence-vote-but-polls-didnt/): > [@](#): > > **Forty-one percent** of Crimeans in the latest KIIS poll, conducted from Feb. 8-18, said Ukraine and Russia should merge into one state. That percentage has ebbed and flowed in recent years, in part because of the small sample size of any one of Ukraine’s 24 oblasts (provinces) in a national poll. **Based on recent years, 41 percent could be an overestimate — just one-third of Crimeans wanted Ukraine to join Russia last year, and fewer than 1 in 4 did in 2012**. To be fair, the margin of error for that KIIS poll was +/- 55%. Oh, and [here’s another bit of data](http://euromaidanpr.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/over-123-of-sevastopol-residents-vote-to-join-russia/), albeit from an entirely biased source (so propaganda filters on, please): > [@](#): > > Over 123% of Sevastopol residents vote to join Russia > [@](#): > > “At 20:00 in Crimea, 1,250,426 people voted,” Malyshev announced. “This result does not include Sevastopol. When Sevastopol is included, 1,724,563 people voted,” he said. Therefore, according to Crimean “authorities,” 474,137 people from Sevastopol voted in the “referendum.” > > However, as of November 1, 2013, according to the Department of Statistics in Sevastopol, the permanent population of the city numbered 383,499 people, and the total population at that time was 385,462 people. Suck it, Kim Jong-Un! Russian elections go up to _11_. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1493 "2014-03-18T10:00:29Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The way you put it was that they are murdered for bashing Putin. That certainly sounds as if Putin has assassins go around and murder anyone who bashes him. [What a ridiculous idea.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya) [Vlad would never do that.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko) ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1494 "2014-03-18T10:56:02Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Oh, and [here’s another bit of data](http://euromaidanpr.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/over-123-of-sevastopol-residents-vote-to-join-russia/), albeit from an entirely biased source (so propaganda filters on, please): > > Suck it, Kim Jong-Un! Russian elections go up to _11_. Which is bullshit. The official clearly did not mention the 1,724,563 figure, but 1,524,563. 1,524,563 - 1,250,426 = 274,137 voters for Sevastopol. Around the 80% mark. Original recording: [Более 95% избирателей в Крыму захотели вернуться в состав России // Новости НТВ](http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/861036/) Somebody fucked up the reporting. Probably just an honest mistake, but lets try not to make Kuwait incubators out of it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1495 "2014-03-18T10:57:49Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > And neither have they been given that choice now. Sunday’s referendum did not allow people to vote for the status quo, and it could be argued that the two valid options given to them would amount to independence. > > It’s essentially like hosting a dinner party and offering your guests a choice of chicken or beef. Many will be happy, the vegetarians will go hungry. For you to be correct you’d have to establish that voter turnout was extraordinarily low yesterday. I have not been hearing much that very few turned out to vote. There is no evidence that those who voted only did so because they were looking down the barrel of a gun to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1496 "2014-03-18T11:04:14Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > For you to be correct you’d have to establish that voter turnout was extraordinarily low yesterday. I have not been hearing much that very few turned out to vote. There is no evidence that those who voted only did so because they were looking down the barrel of a gun to do so. It’s hard for voter turnout to be low when **anyone** can vote, regardless of nationality 😉 ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1497 "2014-03-18T11:04:27Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > [What a ridiculous idea.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya) [Vlad would never do that.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko) I don’t see a case made that he was ordered murdered by Putin and it took place in London not Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1498 "2014-03-18T11:20:58Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I don’t see a case made that he was ordered murdered by Putin and it took place in London not Russia. The polonium was traced back to Russia. And while I’m not a fan of CTs there are some fairly big dots to connect - journalist investigating Putin dies, person investigating the death of the journalist dies in very painful, public and rare manner. But yeah, I suppose he could have pissed off someone else in Russia with agents in London and a fondness for weird methods of assassination. Or maybe Yo Sushi! buy their fish from Fukushima. Who knows? Not Putin, that’s for sure. Can’t possibly have been him - he was off wrestling a tiger that day. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1499 "2014-03-18T11:22:43Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > It’s hard for voter turnout to be low when **anyone** can vote, regardless of nationality 😉 Again prejudiced opinion not substantiated by reality on the ground. And to arrive there one must assume that most pro-Russian Crimeans would not desire to be rejoined to their motherland and they only voted to help in staging a referendum to look real. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1500 "2014-03-18T11:24:57Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Which is bullshit. The official clearly did not mention the 1,724,563 figure, but 1,524,563. 1,524,563 - 1,250,426 = 274,137 voters for Sevastopol. Around the 80% mark. > Original recording: [Более 95% избирателей в Крыму захотели вернуться в состав России // Новости НТВ](http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/861036/) > Somebody fucked up the reporting. Probably just an honest mistake, but lets try not to make Kuwait incubators out of it. I did caveat it heavily, and I don’t read Ukrainian or Russian. I’m more interested in the 538 article anyway. 41%, while still a goodly chunk of the population, does not become 95% in a month no matter what. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=74) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=76)