# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 77
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1521 "2014-03-18T17:16:10Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Blood and soil nationalism, eh? Perhaps you would call the events in Crimea a non-violent ‘popular uprising’ that asked for assistance and backing from outside forces because their right to live under a constitutionally elected government was denied when Yanukovich was violently removed from office? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1522 "2014-03-18T17:37:44Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > What do you mean that’s not what happened in Ukraine? That is bizarre. The violent street mob and the legislators joined together to overthrow and replace the executive branch in order change the direction that the elected president wished to go on ties to the east or west. If that is what you now accept as democracy in action for a 20 year old democracy then Ill have to review where you’ve stood on that topic in the past. I didn’t say it was “democracy”, I said it was a popular uprising. Which it was. Yanukovych fled in the face of the uprising; the impeachment came a week later. The legislators had put together a [deal for early elections](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26289318), remember? > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > We may have to wait a while to find out what role the security forces and military played in the mind of Yanukovich as to whether they would defend his life as one would think is required by the Constitution. Sure, but security forces standing by wouldn’t make it a coup either, as the security forces didn’t seize control of the nation. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If the military and police or either agency sided with the mob and refused to protect the elected President, that makes a mob induced coup d’état also a police or military coup d’etat. Not a coup, see above, and for it to be a military or police coup d’etat, the military or police would have had to replace Yanukovych. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Nit-picking again that it can’t be a popular uprising that resulted in a coup? That is plenty weak and beside the point. Nitpicking…? _You asked to be fact-checked_, remember? > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The Western backed militant coup d’état of Yanukovich is not going so well is it? > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Yanukovich was driven out of office by militant violence was he not? > > Senator McCain stood on the stage with the leaders of the Protests. I have seen the photos. > > What is not true? > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Perhaps you would call the events in Crimea a non-violent ‘popular uprising’ that asked for assistance and backing from outside forces because their right to live under a constitutionally elected government was denied when Yanukovich was violently removed from office? You could, though the “assistance” is indistinguishable from a rigged vote under duress…but that has nothing to do with what you quoted (blood and soil nationalism, a truly vile creed, being the concept that would support **BrokenBriton** ’s contention that the ethnicity of the Crimeans alone determines the government they should be part of, and not their wishes). ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1523 "2014-03-18T18:13:15Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m more interested in the 538 article anyway. 41%, while still a goodly chunk of the population, does not become 95% in a month no matter what. I don’t know that poll, people say the damnest thing in polls, but as I mentioned in a previous post: the 2010 election saw the pro-Russian Yanukovic get more than 1 million Crimea votes out of a about 1.5 million registered voters. That’s more than 80% of the votes assuming a voter turnout of 80% (I don’t know what the turnout was, probably lower than 80%). I’m not really defending the 93% which seems to high, but it is not inconceivable that 80% can become 93% in a few years of turmoil and outrageous corruption, especially when opposing groups actively boycotted the referendum. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1524 "2014-03-18T18:13:24Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Perhaps you would call the events in Crimea a non-violent ‘popular uprising’ that asked for assistance and backing from outside forces because their right to live under a constitutionally elected government was denied when Yanukovich was violently removed from office? Your obsession with Yanukovich has gone on for hundreds of posts and still has not explained why Russia invaded Ukraine. What’s so special about Viktor Yakunovich that Russia had to violate Ukraine’s sovereignty to… well, \*to do absolutely nothing to return Viktor Yakunovich to power? \* ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1525 "2014-03-18T18:16:49Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Your obsession with Yanukovich has gone on for hundreds of posts and still has not explained why Russia invaded Ukraine. What’s so special about Viktor Yakunovich that Russia had to violate Ukraine’s sovereignty to… well, \*to do absolutely nothing to return Viktor Yakunovich to power? \* They had to take it back illegally because they give it away illegally 3 generations ago. Isn’t it obvious? ---
**Author:** ![Anondragon2012](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anondragon2012](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anondragon2012)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1526 "2014-03-18T19:28:40Z")
> [@Frank\_Merton](#): > > The 95% number strikes me as a fairly typical Communist election result. Seventy percent or so would perhaps have been credible. We look to be back to the bad old days. Haha good old Russian elections [![](https://letras-uruguay.espaciolatino.com/aaa/geria_jose_andres/Image5.jpg) ](https://letras-uruguay.espaciolatino.com/aaa/geria_jose_andres/Image5.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1527 "2014-03-18T20:32:42Z")
No comments yet on the first confirmed violent deaths in Crimea? One Ukrainian soldier dead, possibly one pro-Russian militant also dead. And a Crimean Tatar has also been found dead, two weeks after being kidnapped by men wearing military uniforms. If things are going to get nasty over Crimea, **this** will be the turning point. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1528 "2014-03-18T20:38:10Z")
It’s just Western-backed fascism. Watch Russia take more. They’re already in position all over eastern Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1529 "2014-03-18T20:52:39Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The method yesterday to leave Ukraine’s borders was a hell of a lot more democratic than the method that joined Crimea to Ukraine in 1954. At that time the Premier of the USSR gave Crimea to Ukraine as a gift. Presumably because Nikita Khrushchev had found a Ukrainian woman who was willing to marry his ugly face. Couldn’t have had anything to do with the fact that he was born in the Ukraine, governed the Ukraine during the Stalin years, and was always trying to enhance and expand the Ukraine and wanted to give the Ukraine a black sea port? Naw, nothing like that…must have been because a Ukrainian woman wanted to marry him. What I find amusing in all of this is how little you know, yet you make assertions as if they are fact. Additionally, how hypocritical you actually are in all of this. On the one face, you decry the fact that the Soviet Union arbitrarily gave the Crimea to the Ukraine (which was pretty much the modi operandi for how the old Soviet Union worked), and on the other face you feel Russia somehow has a claim to the Crimea now, based on the history of Russians having the Crimea and there being a Russian population there (conveniently, you skip over how Russia got the Crimea in the first place, why there IS a high concentration of Russian speakers there, and all of that sort of messy past stuff…except when you want to focus on the past because you figure it makes your case…or something). It’s highly amusing to watch your antics in threads like this. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1530 "2014-03-18T21:01:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Your obsession with Yanukovich has gone on for hundreds of posts and still has not explained why Russia invaded Ukraine. What’s so special about Viktor Yakunovich that Russia had to violate Ukraine’s sovereignty to… well, \*to do absolutely nothing to return Viktor Yakunovich to power? \* Well it does fit. Yanukovich’s ouster, along with the Ukrainian parliaments tone deaf reaction to remove Russian as an official language, and then in haste reversing itself has definitely made Eastern Ukraine feel as if their interests were being completely ignored and rolled over - and at the same time made Russia nervous as it seemed it would likely only be a matter of time for Ukraine to join NATO (after their EU entrance, of course). You have a frightened pro-Russia Eastern Ukraine along with the threat of NATO reaching even further, which ended up scaring the crap out of Russia - so in Russia’s mind they had to move first or else they’d be stuck. Yanukovich’s ouster was important in accelerating the fear of Eastern Ukraine and Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Anondragon2012](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anondragon2012](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anondragon2012)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1531 "2014-03-18T21:12:05Z")
Now that you mention it, Putin could really pull a Hitler and make the whole of Ukraine a protektorat. I mean if the Ukrainians actually resist. There is already 1 officer dead and shots are ringing in military base. Could give good pretext for Putin to occupy rest of Ukraine “Ethnic russians are being threatened now across Ukraine” etc… Guy could almost pull it off, seriously ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1532 "2014-03-18T21:35:22Z")
> [@Anondragon2012](#): > > Now that you mention it, Putin could really pull a Hitler and make the whole of Ukraine a protektorat. > > I mean if the Ukrainians actually resist. There is already 1 officer dead and shots are ringing in military base. > > Could give good pretext for Putin to occupy rest of Ukraine > “Ethnic russians are being threatened now across Ukraine” etc… > > Guy could almost pull it off, seriously Putin is aggressive, but not crazy. Ukraine would prove his Waterloo. We’re underestimating what it would take to invade and control a country larger than Germany, with a population of 45 million, and the explicit support of the West. The Red Army would have to fight for every inch, and Russia’s economy would not be able to take the strain. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1533 "2014-03-18T21:51:23Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Well it does fit. Yanukovich’s ouster, along with the Ukrainian parliaments tone deaf reaction to remove Russian as an official language… The parliament did not “remove Russian as an official language”. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1534 "2014-03-18T21:52:16Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I didn’t say it was “democracy”, I said it was a popular uprising. Which it was. Yanukovych fled in the face of the uprising; the impeachment came a week later. The legislators had put together a [deal for early elections](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26289318), remember? > > . The impeachment procedure was not conducted in compliance with the Constitution. There was no legal impeachment. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1535 "2014-03-18T21:56:17Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Putin is aggressive, but not crazy. Ukraine would prove his Waterloo. We’re underestimating what it would take to invade and control a country larger than Germany, with a population of 45 million, and the explicit support of the West. The Red Army would have to fight for every inch, and Russia’s economy would not be able to take the strain. Putin said at the signing of the treaty with Crimea that Eastern Ukraine is not going to be annexed. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1536 "2014-03-18T22:00:24Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Putin said at the signing of the treaty with Crimea that Eastern Ukraine is not going to be annexed. Just like he said he has no spetznaz there and all the highly trained and equipped “militias” formed up and bought their Russian uniforms and trucks (including Russian license plates) at a military surplus store the night before. ---
**Author:** ![Anondragon2012](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anondragon2012](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anondragon2012)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1537 "2014-03-18T22:08:51Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Putin is aggressive, but not crazy. Ukraine would prove his Waterloo. We’re underestimating what it would take to invade and control a country larger than Germany, with a population of 45 million, and the explicit support of the West. The Red Army would have to fight for every inch, and Russia’s economy would not be able to take the strain. At the very least, put a pro-russian puppet in place instead of the “EU Fascists”. To be very honest I just dont see that pro-EU government lasting very long. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1538 "2014-03-18T22:11:29Z")
> [@Anondragon2012](#): > > At the very least, put a pro-russian puppet in place instead of the “EU Fascists”. > To be very honest I just dont see that pro-EU government lasting very long. No, not with EU and US showing, quite definitively, that they don’t really care about Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1539 "2014-03-18T22:12:04Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Putin said at the signing of the treaty with Crimea that Eastern Ukraine is not going to be annexed. Why do I get the feeling that if Putin _does_ invade Eastern Ukraine, we will be hearing a lot about why it is okay because the government in Kiev is illegitimate etc.? I mean, are you (or anyone) going to be seriously upset that he’s lied? Will him lying have any consequences at all? ---
**Author:** ![Anondragon2012](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anondragon2012](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anondragon2012)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1540 "2014-03-18T22:18:58Z")
By the way… I hate to bring Czechoslovakia again into the forefront… But Germany said same thing in Munich “Dont worry we just want Sudetenland”, and all of the suddenly less than a year later the rest was annexed by Germany, Hungary, and Poland and the state was completely dissolved. It just seems that when you start breaking up a state…A total breakup soon after becomes a logical conclusion because said-state cannot guarantee new borders and internally the politics become chaotic. Anyway lets wait and see [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=76) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=78)