# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 81
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1601 "2014-03-20T06:10:37Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > You should do more than hope. This conflict was predictable. Europe should be all in fracking for gas independence, both from Russian, the Middle East, and the USA. > > Now I read that the Ukrainian government, or what goes for such, is to start a visa system for travel to Russia. Do they really think that is the best way forward to mend a nation consisting of a quarter Russians? Well, Russians\* are more like [17%, not 25%](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Demographics) and if Crimea goes over to Russia, that number will obviously be less. But I think Russia needs to do the mending, not Ukraine. Let’s keep in mind which country invaded which. If you’re an ethnic Russian in Ukraine you might want to tell your cousins across the border to stop sending troops in illegally so a visa system is not needed. \*Whatever that even means. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1602 "2014-03-20T06:26:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m going to play a little twist on that quote: > > “In other words, the [del]Ukrainian[/del] Egyptian constitution can be violated at will when that serves someone’s interests…” If you want to hijack … I’ll go back to the Egypt thread… and explain why you have made an error going down that path. In Egypt when Morsi was tossed out, the Constitution was suspended and the revolutionaries that brought down Mubarak were pleased that the military did what they did. Then they voted in a new Constitution. The real point in Cairo was that the Military was never not really in control of government power in Egypt anyway. Not so in Kiev. It was a legislative Coup suddenly pouncing upon the violence in the streets and the Lawmakers violated the Constitution to change the direction of the government. The people in Crimea had a similar popular uprising and violated the (Violated) Constitution in order to leave that troublesome mess in Kiev behind. Its done. Kiev lawmakers deserved what they got They should have followed the law in the first place. Since they didn’t they should quit complaining that Crimea was able to leave because of the opportunity that Kiev lawmakers had given them. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1603 "2014-03-20T06:47:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, Russians\* are more like [17%, not 25%](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Demographics) and if Crimea goes over to Russia, that number will obviously be less. But I think Russia needs to do the mending, not Ukraine. Let’s keep in mind which country invaded which. If you’re an ethnic Russian in Ukraine you might want to tell your cousins across the border to stop sending troops in illegally so a visa system is not needed. > > \*Whatever that even means. Whatever Russia did in Crimea it was during the un-constitutional transfer of power that took place in Kiev in a supposedly democratic nation. When the News media gets sick of hearing from McCain, Cheney and Condi… telling us all about proper international behavior by major military powers in the world. … then this will all be settled out and forgotten and all in all it it will be seen as not a bad way to have settled a post-Soviet-breakup-mistake when all the tensions have receded. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1604 "2014-03-20T07:05:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, Russians\* are more like [17%, not 25%](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Demographics) and if Crimea goes over to Russia, that number will obviously be less. But I think Russia needs to do the mending, not Ukraine. Let’s keep in mind which country invaded which. I kinda doubt those numbers. I’ve only been in Kiev and the eastern part so my experience is skewered, but I’ve never met a person who had Ukrainian as first language. The mending I talked about was the internal Ukrainian mending. They have to go forward as a bilingual bi-ethnic state. That means accepting close ties with Russia. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you’re an ethnic Russian in Ukraine you might want to tell your cousins across the border to stop sending troops in illegally so a visa system is not needed. I trust you can see how that is the same as for instance telling Jews in the USA to inform their brethren in Israel to stop doing bad stuff to the Palestinians. American Jews are not responsible for what Israel does, and Russian speaking Ukrainians are not responsible for Russia’s actions. As far as I know the majority identify as Ukrainians, however if they feel marginalized or vilified they will naturally start to question that. Up till around a month ago I saw a lot of Ukrainian flags and stuff posted by Russian speaking Ukrainians on social media; now almost nothing. I wonder if too much damage has already been done and it is already too late. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1605 "2014-03-20T07:10:48Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I kinda doubt those numbers. I’ve only been in Kiev and the eastern part so my experience is skewered, but I’ve never met a person who had Ukrainian as first language. The mending I talked about was the internal Ukrainian mending. They have to go forward as a bilingual bi-ethnic state. That means accepting close ties with Russia. If you have other numbers, let’s see them. Your impression is just that-- an impression. > [@](#): > > I trust you can see how that is the same as for instance telling Jews in the USA to inform their brethren in Israel to stop doing bad stuff to the Palestinians. Uhm, no. Israel didn’t invade the US, so your analogy fails big time. Anyway, it’s your idea that a country has to tip-toe around an ethnic group and disregard it’s own sovereignty. When one country invades another, I don’t think it’s odd for the invaded country to be concerned about the going back and forth with the invader. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1606 "2014-03-20T07:16:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you have other numbers, let’s see them. Your impression is just that-- an impression. Absolutely. I don’t really care to convince you of anything. I merely offered my impression. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Uhm, no. Israel didn’t invade the US, so your analogy fails big time. It doesn’t matter what Israel or Russia has done. A person in another nation is not responsible. But what you are saying, is that a Russian speaking person born in Dnepropetrovsk should feel obliged to assume some responsibility for at least informing Russia the errors of their ways? That’s major fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1607 "2014-03-20T07:18:43Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Absolutely. I don’t really care to convince you of anything. I merely offered my impression. You offered a fact in GD to support your argument. If you’re just going to make stuff up without caring if it’s correct or not then there is no point in debating with you. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1608 "2014-03-20T07:28:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Anyway, it’s your idea that a country has to tip-toe around an ethnic group and disregard it’s own sovereignty. When one country invades another, I don’t think it’s odd for the invaded country to be concerned about the going back and forth with the invader. Yes it is my idea that a government of a nation which has a history of difficulty integrating its population into a functional entity should try not to do something which will antagonize large parts of the population. But instead focus on actions which can bring the different groups together. If you feel like the majority insisting on your rights and legal prerogative and bicker about who started is the way forward then good luck with that. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > You offered a fact in GD to support your argument. If you’re just going to make stuff up without caring if it’s correct or not then there is no point in debating with you. If you call a personal “doubt” which I admit is biased for a "fact " then you weren’t debating anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1609 "2014-03-20T10:58:59Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I kinda doubt those numbers. I’ve only been in Kiev and the eastern part so my experience is skewered, but I’ve never met a person who had Ukrainian as first language. Ethnically Russian and “has Russian as a first language” isn’t the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1610 "2014-03-20T11:13:51Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Yes it is my idea that a government of a nation which has a history of difficulty integrating its population into a functional entity should try not to do something which will antagonize large parts of the population. But instead focus on actions which can bring the different groups together. > > If you feel like the majority insisting on your rights and legal prerogative and bicker about who started is the way forward then good luck with that. > > If you call a personal “doubt” which I admit is biased for a "fact " then you weren’t debating anyhow. I am pointing out that Mace’s argument is his opinion not the actual numbers. John Mace wrote what he thinks: > [@](#): > > But I think Russia needs to do the mending, not Ukraine. Let’s keep in mind which country invaded which. I challenged that he ‘thinks’ wrong to use the term ‘invasion’ with respect to Russian actions in Crimea because he leaves out the reality of events in Kiev that preceded what Crimeans and Russians did. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1611 "2014-03-20T12:49:15Z")
Nothing that happened in Kiev justified what the Russians did and are doing in Crimea. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1612 "2014-03-20T13:45:46Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Nothing that happened in Kiev justified what the Russians did and are doing in Crimea. I don’t know. Those Tartars were about to rise up any minute and crush the “Russian Speakers”. At 15% of the population, they were a real danger! ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1613 "2014-03-20T14:20:47Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > This is slightly hijackish, so, apologies, but… I’ve been listening to right wing hate radio, and they’re being very uncomplimentary to Obama… > > What do they think he should have done? > > (I think it’s obvious that there is nothing he could have done that they would ever actually approve, but, using hindsight, what would they say he should have done? If their own idea of a perfect president had been in charge, what would he have done?) They don’t offer any suggestions. (Frankly, I think _everyone_ realises that there isn’t/wasn’t much anyone can do to pressure Russia to pull out of the Crimea.) If I understand the gist of the radio segments (I don’t always give the radio my full attention, it’s on for background noise) I have heard is that _past_ diplomatic or foreign policy mistakes and/or weaknesses on Obama’s part has led to a weakening of the U.S.'s diplomatic power or leverage, and ultimately allowing Putin to be more able to embark on more aggressive activities. I don’t share that partisan-right wing conclusion, so please don’t ask me to defend it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1614 "2014-03-20T15:45:36Z")
Obama should have looked into Putin’s soul, which he could see from Alaska. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1615 "2014-03-20T16:00:22Z")
Welp, here we go. Where will it end? Estonia? Lithuania? Poland? [http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/19/us-russia-estonia-idUSBREA2I1J620140319](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/19/us-russia-estonia-idUSBREA2I1J620140319) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1616 "2014-03-20T16:05:30Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Welp, here we go. Where will it end? Estonia? Lithuania? Poland? > > [Moscow signals concern for Russians in Estonia | Reuters](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/19/us-russia-estonia-idUSBREA2I1J620140319) Ugh. Russia is just begging for more sanctions. Estonia is a NATO member, and we should honor that agreement if needed. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1617 "2014-03-20T16:08:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Ugh. Russia is just begging for more sanctions. Estonia is a NATO member, and we should honor that agreement if needed. “More” sanctions? Really? The current “sanctions” on Russia are like a mosquito bite. Irritating for a second, easily dismissed. Russians laughed them off, and it wasn’t just a pose, they are really laughable. Hell, even calling them “sanctions” is a joke. It is better not to impose any sanctions than to do something that is transparently just a small gesture and call it “sanctions”. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1618 "2014-03-20T16:11:00Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Nothing that happened in Kiev justified what the Russians did and are doing in Crimea. Says You. The undermining of the Constitution for the transfer of power certainly was a trigger that caused the majority to act. Once they moved to secede during a constitutional crisis they asked for Russian help. And they got it. ---
**Author:** ![Artemi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Artemi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Artemi)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1619 "2014-03-20T16:28:00Z")
Here is some Ukraine democracy. Maidaners are beating the police in Kiev. Svoboda members pulling on the director of the first Ukrainian channel to sign off his duty. Ukraine police interrogation by maidan volunteers. A man interrogation by maidan volunteers. An attempted murder of a deputy in Myrhorod, Ukraine, (10:00) [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-jjVjajfHw) Automaidan activists attempt to racket the Lucoil director. Maidaner is beating the woman near the maidan. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/NhPk0VxCzbs/maxresdefault.jpg "Майдановцы бьют женщину") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhPk0VxCzbs) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1620 "2014-03-20T16:39:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **Red** : Even if you assume the USA is mostest evilest country that ever existed, why would you condone what’s going on in Crimea? There’s a whole separate debate about whether the US has the moral high ground to criticize, but why would you condone another power doing something similar? > > It makes no sense. > [@RedFury](#): > > Not so sure that it makes for a “whole different debate,” **John** , as it (US past & current actions) tie right into the hypocresy of calling Russia out on something they have absolutely NO moral standing to do so. And with all the grandstading and admonishments coming out of most political sources, the whole thing is turning into an Onion piece. > > As for the Russian actions, while I stop short of condoning them, I can certainly _understand_ why they’ve done what they’ve done. Moreover I am frankly surprised in light of the prior events that have come to light – the US & the EU openly meddling in Ukrainian affairs; up to and including _paying_ protesters\* – that anyone would be shocked (shocked, shocked! let me tell you) that Putin’s Russia did what it did. And correct me if I am wrong, but there hasn’t been a single casualty thus far in this so-called “invasion.” In quotes mainly because those Russian troops _were already there_ legally as per their treaty w/Ukraine vis-a-vis leasing the port of Sevastopol. Now, if you or anyone else thinks that Russia would give up their only direct access to the Mediterranean, you have another thing coming – or rather what is happening _now_. You also have a plurality of Russian speakers/descendants that want no part of what is happening in Kiev nor Western Ukraine in particular. That the Russians used then as an added excuse to take over The Crimea, is a ploy the US has used over and over all over the world. Do two wrongs make a right? Of course not. But between the actions of the two nations over the past 15/20 years or so, yes I’ll go with what I see as the lesser of the two evils…for as long as they don’t prove me wrong. > > \*\*\*\*\* Frankly very tired tired ATM as I’ve had a very long/stressful day, but fairly sure I posted a link to that story upthread – if not I’ll find it for you tomorrow. > > I’ve never been content with the seemingly unipolar world that the US has been trying to carve for itself ever since the fall of the former USSR, thus I think some sort of counterbalance is a _good thing_. And the last straw is for Russia to allow NATO’s nuclear missiles in its own backyard. Never mind the plundering that has already been planned for Ukraine itself by the EU & the US themselves…even if they are not going about it hand in glove. > > Lastly, like it or not (general “you”) it seems pretty clear by now that Ukraine in in total disarray and Kiev is hardly in control _of anything_, beginning with its own armed forces. If you would, please read the following article as it might give you some insight into who, exactly is heading this putsch – Boy Scouts they are not. Quite the contrary, in their fecklessness to replace Yanukovich it appears no ne took the time to vet these facists thugs: > > [**How the far-right took top posts in Ukraine’s power vacuum**](http://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right) > > Just an excerpt: > > – more at source. > > Now, imagine for a second if you will, that the same kind of violent coup took place in Mexico and replace those unsavory characters with anti-American ones, and I ask you? How long do you think it would take for **any US President to intervene**? > > So, in a broad outline, there you have it – why I think the topics are not as separate as you seem to think. > > Usual disclaimer: I am not a Putin-lover. In fact, I love no politician I can think of. > > Perhaps it might make some now? > > * * * > > **Ibaq** , would you please make sure fucking Franco is still dead? Many thanks. > [@RedFury](#): > > If you rather read the abridged version, **John** , skip my sleep-inducing wall of text, and read this one. > [@RickJay](#): > > Facts are facts, though. You seem bizarrely happy with Russia’s new, fascist look and it beating up a smaller, weaker country. I don’t really understand why you would be, but there it is. > > I suppose anyone, even a Vladimir Putin, has supporters. Heck, the old school fascists like Franco and Mussolini had overseas supporters. I just don’t understand why. They’re so transparently horrible. > [@RedFury](#): > > I answered that one looong ago to **John Mace**. Not sure if in this thread or another one, but I _am_ sure neither him nor anyone else qualified my response as worthy of an answer – or perchance they _didn’t have one_. Which, looking backwards, is the most likely non-response. > > You are welcome to look it up and answer though. Just not up to either repeating my response nor looking for it – **it’s on record**. Which is why I’ve said I write many of these posts as I did w/regards to the Iraq record. Not rubbing it in anyone’s faces, but rather let the record speak for itself. And it does and will. > > Be well. > [@RickJay](#): > > None of this cryptic reply explains why you seem so pleased at the events in Ukraine. Nor do I recall what you said about Iraq in 2003, or, to be honest, much care. There. I’ve done the work. Nothing “cryptic” about the exchange; other than **John’s** refusal to respond after asking the original question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=80) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=82)