# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 82
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1621 "2014-03-20T16:41:36Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Says You. The undermining of the Constitution for the transfer of power certainly was a trigger that caused the majority to act. Once they moved to secede during a constitutional crisis they asked for Russian help. And they got it. No. Undercover Russian troops got there first (26th of February). It was only on the 27th that the Crimean parliament, surrounded by gunmen, called for a referendum. > [@Artemi](#): > > Here is some Ukraine democracy. No. here is some circumstancial evidence that says very little about the overall picture. Some of the events are quite ‘normal’ (particularly the one of Maidan supporters supposedly “beating” a woman, which shows nothing of the kind). I’m Spanish and I’ve seen stuff like this in my home country for years, but that doesn’t negate Spain’s democratic status, or allow Russia to send its troops in to Catalonia. Some other videos (particularly the one where Svoboda members harass a journalist) are **extremely** worrying. Thankfully, it seems that Ukrainian democrats have made it very clear that this is unacceptable, and the event will be investigated further. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1622 "2014-03-20T17:04:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Ugh. Russia is just begging for more sanctions. Estonia is a NATO member, and we should honor that agreement if needed. Of course. And a Russian move on Estonia is not going to happen. However there are grounds for being concerned for the Russian minority in Estonia. And the UN, EU, Amnesty International, and others have expressed similar concern in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1623 "2014-03-20T17:15:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Ugh. Russia is just begging for more sanctions. Estonia is a NATO member, and we should honor that agreement if needed. The US will have no choice but to honor that agreement. Otherwise, the results would be disastrous. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1624 "2014-03-20T18:15:44Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Of course. And a Russian move on Estonia is not going to happen. However there are grounds for being concerned for the Russian minority in Estonia. And the UN, EU, Amnesty International, and others have expressed similar concern in the past. When the UN, EU and AI start invading other countries, then I’ll be concerned about them as well. As it is, Russia is the one invading other countries, so right now I’m concerned about them. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1625 "2014-03-20T18:55:50Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > There. I’ve done the work. Nothing “cryptic” about the exchange; other than **John’s** refusal to respond after asking the original question. Well, yes, you did a great job picking and choosing the posts you wanted to highlight, but left out stuff like “All is well that ends well. Crimea is part of Russia” and links to alleged photos of Russian celebrations and other gushing nonsense. Your rejoicing in Russia’s bullying of Crimea doesn’t get a pass because you occasionally contradict that position. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1626 "2014-03-20T19:55:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, yes, you did a great job picking and choosing the posts you wanted to highlight, but left out stuff like “All is well that ends well. Crimea is part of Russia” and links to alleged photos of Russian celebrations and other gushing nonsense. Your rejoicing in Russia’s bullying of Crimea doesn’t get a pass because you occasionally contradict that position. If you say so _:::shrug:::_ – in any event what either you and I think about the issue is completely irrelevant in so far as what actually happens. Only difference is I was able to make the right call from the start. Just two blokes on an Internet board, one, clearly a Russophobe as most/all of his posts show and another-one, a bit more “reality-based.” Bet you can figure out who is who. Have a great day. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1627 "2014-03-20T20:25:22Z")
Tit for tat: [**Here’s The List Of Americans Who Just Got Sanctioned By Russia**](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/obama-russia-sanctions) > [@](#): > > Following a new round of sanctions announced by President Barack Obama in response to Russia’s invasion of the Ukrainian Crimea, the Russian Foreign Ministry on Thursday responded in kind. > > Here’s the American officials who made the list, via Roll Call’s Steven Dennis: > > ``` > [**Russia's list of USA officials sanctioned**](https://twitter.com/StevenTDennis/status/446675936000225281/photo/1) > > — Steven Dennis (@StevenTDennis) March 20, 2014... > > ``` Surprised Kerry isn’t on it, seeing as he was the Greates Foolish Instigator…of nothing. ETA: For that matter what about Palin “I can see Russia from here”? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1628 "2014-03-20T20:27:52Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Tit for tat: > > [**Here’s The List Of Americans Who Just Got Sanctioned By Russia**](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/obama-russia-sanctions) > > Surprised Kerry isn’t on it, seeing as he was the Greates Foolish Instigator…of nothing. What do the sanctions consist of? No trips to Siberia? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1629 "2014-03-20T20:34:09Z")
[**Obama Rules Out Military Force Over Ukraine**](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/21/world/europe/obama-ukraine.html?_r=0) Though certainly not a fan of his, this shows why he is curently the most level-headed leader the US has had in ermm…the past 14 years. > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON — President Obama said on Wednesday that he had ruled out the use of United States military force in the Ukraine crisis, and that the international response to Russia’s seizure of Crimea will be limited to diplomacy. > > “We are not going to be getting into a military excursion in Ukraine,” Mr. Obama told Mark Mullen, a news anchor at the NBC affiliate in San Diego. “What we are going to do is mobilize all of our diplomatic resources to make sure that we’ve got a strong international correlation that sends a clear message.” > > The comment was Mr. Obama’s most direct rejection to date of the idea of taking military action in response to Russia’s annexation of the Crimean peninsula, a process that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia set in motion in late February. > > Mr. Obama said the United States would continue to “ratchet up” pressure on the Russians with sanctions, but said, “I think even the Ukrainians would acknowledge that for us to engage Russia military would not be appropriate, and wouldn’t be good for Ukraine either.” Well said, Sir. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1630 "2014-03-20T20:35:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What do the sanctions consist of? No trips to Siberia? Seriously? Bullshit 4 bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1631 "2014-03-20T20:52:46Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Of course. And a Russian move on Estonia is not going to happen. However there are grounds for being concerned for the Russian minority in Estonia. And the UN, EU, Amnesty International, and others have expressed similar concern in the past. Why? What is being done to them? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1632 "2014-03-20T21:00:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why? What is being done to them? This goes back some time, but it gives you a bit of a background. [**Ethnic Russians have it tough in Estonia**](http://balticreports.com/2010/02/02/ethnic-russians-have-it-tough-in-estonia/) > [@](#): > > ALLINN — After 20 years of Estonian independence, ethnic Russians and other minorities continue to face discrimination according to the United Nations and European Union. > > A UN Human Rights Council report from 2007 said little concrete actions was being taken on issues such as the statelessness of ethnic Russians and the language policy. > > The depth of the problem was also [**addressed**](http://balticreports.com/?p=4824) at the European Union’s Equality Summit in Stockholm in November where many top EU and non-governmental organization officials said the Baltic states are failing to uphold human rights and equal treatment of minorities. – more at source. Whether it’s gotten worse or not, I can’t say. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1633 "2014-03-20T21:21:54Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Seriously? Bullshit 4 bullshit. Thing is, Russian oligarchs are very fond of travelling to Europe and the USA. Take a walk around London and you’ll _feel_ the Russian money flowing, whether it is buying Picasso paintings or under-achieving football clubs. I quote from The Telegraph: “[Between 2008 and 2013, a massive $421bn – equivalent to 20pc of Russian GDP – in private sector money flowed out of the country](http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/matspersson/100026847/ukraine-crisis-what-sanctions-would-actually-hurt-russia/)”. I doubt that the same can be said of Western investors in Russia. Restrictions have also been placed on US trade with Rossiya Bank, which could also prove to be more relevant than we realise at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1634 "2014-03-20T21:26:51Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**Obama Rules Out Military Force Over Ukraine**](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/21/world/europe/obama-ukraine.html?_r=0) > > Though certainly not a fan of his, this shows why he is curently the most level-headed leader the US has had in ermm…the past 14 years. > > Well said, Sir. This seriously surprises you?? I mean…seriously? > [@](#): > > Just two blokes on an Internet board, one, clearly a Russophobe as most/all of his posts show and another-one, a bit more “reality-based.” > > Bet you can figure out who is who. I know who is more self deluded. I bet most in this thread can figure that out as well. Gonzomax…er, sorry, I mean NFBW…certainly would be on your side, though, so that much be a great comfort to you. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1635 "2014-03-20T21:28:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why? What is being done to them? Apparently, they are being denied citizenship. [The Amnesty International site says](https://www.amnesty.org/en/region/estonia/report-2013) > [@](#): > > **Discrimination – ethnic minorities** > > About 100,000 people (approximately 7% of the population) remained stateless. The large majority of these were Russian speakers. Children born of stateless parents continued to be denied automatic citizenship, although a simplified naturalization procedure was available to them. Stateless people continued to be denied political rights. They were reportedly disproportionately affected by poverty and unemployment. Language requirements appeared to be one of the main obstacles for Russian speakers to access citizenship and other rights. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1636 "2014-03-20T21:37:27Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**Obama Rules Out Military Force Over Ukraine**](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/21/world/europe/obama-ukraine.html?_r=0) > > Though certainly not a fan of his, this shows why he is curently the most level-headed leader the US has had in ermm…the past 14 years. > > Well said, Sir. And Obama said something today that Ukrainians should not have to choose between Russia and the EU. Perhaps Cargil and other big Agribusiness and other big corporate investors have Obama’s ear. The Russians proposed a similar solution suggesting to Federalize Ukraine and let the regions choose their own trade partnerships. Once the Russophobia dies down we should limit US financial aid in the future to a mutual east west compromise to force Ukrainian’s to do what’s in the best interest of the entire region and actually for themselves. It’s hard to explain right now over the Russophobia that tends to overwhelm many from clear headed thinking. > [@Batistuta](#): > > No. Undercover Russian troops got there first (26th of February). It was only on the 27th that the Crimean parliament, surrounded by gunmen, called for a referendum. And you know they are identified as undercover Russian troops getting there first - how? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1637 "2014-03-20T21:41:39Z")
> [@XT](#): > > This seriously surprises you?? I mean…seriously? … Actually, I figured it would surprise a warmogering poster. Unlike you of course. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1638 "2014-03-20T21:42:09Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > And you know they are identified as undercover Russian troops getting there first - how? Well, either they’re undercover Russian troops, or a bunch of Ukrainians stole dozens of Russian military vehicles and drove into Crimea. Putin never tried too hard to disguise his troops, although he did deny any connection with them. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1639 "2014-03-20T21:42:18Z")
If someone gets “Russophobe” or “Russophobia” again I’ll have a full punchcard and get a free borscht with my next visit to “Burgers and Borscht”. I suppose the fact that some people feel the need to include a giant barrel of well poison in each of their posts says something about their confidence in their own arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1640 "2014-03-20T21:44:09Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Well, either they’re undercover Russian troops, or a bunch of Ukrainians stole dozens of Russian military vehicles and drove into Crimea. Putin never tried too hard to disguise his troops, although he did deny any connection with them. And Russian military weapons not available elsewhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=81) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=83)