# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 84
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1661 "2014-03-21T01:23:25Z")
You know, RedFury, I have been holding the middle ground in this debate from the beginning, imho, and I have to agree you’ve done a lot of inappropriate cheerleading in place of debate. I say this as someone who doesn’t give a flying fuck about the USA’s honour at stake. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1662 "2014-03-21T02:37:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > When the UN, EU and AI start invading other countries, then I’ll be concerned about them as well. As it is, Russia is the one invading other countries, so right now I’m concerned about them. That is plural. What are the other countries that Russia is invading? The EU commissioned an investigation that found that Russia was justified to respond to protect the lives of their troops and Russian civilians that were under heavy artillery attack by the Georgian military. Surely you don’t count the Georgian attack on Russian Federation Forces as one of your Russian invasions. So what are you talking about besides invasion lighter than light in Crimea? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1663 "2014-03-21T02:45:22Z")
Answers can be found [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=715398) ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1664 "2014-03-21T07:52:00Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > In not saying you are wrong about the dates the trucks with Russian license plates were filmed but could you find the dates on those reports as compared to February 26th which is the date you have identified in your argument. And I’ve seen no ban on The Russian Navy loaning some trucks to kindred folk who think they found the right moment to secede because of the unconstitutional mess in Kiev at the time. Sorry, it was night time here in Europe. Late on the 26th of February, armed troops started [restricting access to Sevastopol](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/tension-in-crimea-as-pro-russia-and-pro-ukraine-groups-stage-competing-rallies/article17110382/#dashboard/follows/?cmpid=tgc). Very early on the 27th, similar troops had seized [control of the airport](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/report-armed-men-seize-regional-govt-crimea) in Crimea and the [government headquarters.](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/27/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-idUSBREA1P23U20140227) It was only **later** that same day that the regional parliament [called for a referendum.](http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2014/0227/Crimea-sets-date-for-autonomy-vote-amid-gunmen-anti-Kiev-protests-video). That’s why I have trouble seeing this as an internal struggle that later gets support from Russia. As far as I know, Russia was in Crimea beforehand, and I personally believe that their troops were the ones to really push to get the referendum done as quickly as possible. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So what are you talking about besides invasion lighter than light in Crimea? The ‘lightness’ of the invasion is irrelevant. Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity have been breached. Once that is done, it doesn’t matter if the invaders come in killing people or massaging their backs - they are illegal invaders. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1665 "2014-03-21T08:09:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Answers can be found [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=715398) There were no answers there. I take that to mean you have no answer. Putin has annexed Crimea by heavy demand to be wherever she belongs. The only invasion if you must call it by Russialn forces since 1991. That is nothing compared to an invasion in 2003 that you write in 2003 that it was justified. This one in 2014 killed 1. How many died in that invasion you said was justified? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1666 "2014-03-21T09:09:40Z")
I’m just not seeing reports anout Licensed Russian trucks until later: > [@](#): > > With Crimea now the last big bastion of opposition to the new post-Yanukovich political order in Kiev, Ukraine’s new leaders have been voicing alarm over signs of separatism there. Armed men seize government building, parliament in Ukraine’s Crimea Alessandra Prentice, Reuters. Thursday, February 27, 2014, 12:59 AM > **[Armed men seize government building, parliament in Ukraine's Crimea](https://torontosun.com/2014/02/27/armed-men-seize-government-building-parliament-in-ukraines-crimea)** > > SIMFEROPOL, Ukraine  - Armed mean have seized the regional government headquarters and parliament on Ukraine's Crimea peninsula, Interfax news agency said on Thursd… > [@](#): > > 28 February press conference > At a 28 February press conference in Rostov-on-Don in southwestern Russia, Yanukovych said that an armed coup had taken place in Ukraine, and that he was still the legitimate president because there had been no impeachment, resignation, or death.[208] On 11 March he claimed he should return to Ukraine as soon as it can be possible.[209][20]\*\*).[20][211] > **[Viktor Yanukovych](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych)** > > Viktor Fedorovych Yanukovych\[b\] (born 9 July 1950) is a former Ukrainian politician who served as the fourth president of Ukraine from 2010 to 2014. He also served as the prime minister of Ukraine several times between 2002 and 2007 and was a member of the Verkhovna Rada (parliament) from 2006 to 2010. A member of the pro-Russian Party of Regions, Yanukovych provoked mass protests — the Euromaidan — after his unexpected rejection of the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement approved by Fluid days indeed.Crinea had a popular uprising and separated from Ukraine with Russian assistance. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_Merton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Frank\_Merton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_Merton)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1667 "2014-03-21T09:38:09Z")
Crimea is probably going to be part of Russia, at least according to Russia. Few other nations will recognize it so it will be an illegal situation. This will be remembered; I think Putin and his successors will come to regret doing this. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1668 "2014-03-21T10:06:41Z")
> [@Frank\_Merton](#): > > Crimea is probably going to be part of Russia, at least according to Russia. Few other nations will recognize it so it will be an illegal situation. > > This will be remembered; I think Putin and his successors will come to regret doing this. Russia may be able to pressure some smaller countries into recognising Crimea as part of the Federation (think China and Taiwan). But the long-term costs of supporting a poor region that is detached from the Russian mainland will be large. And as we’ve mentioned before, a Crimea-less Ukraine is more pro-European than pro-Russian. By the way, it seems that the EU has [signed an association agreement with Ukraine](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26680250). I think that’s a **huge** mistake given that Ukraine’s leaders have not been elected, and we are 2 months away from a national vote. The EU has over-extended itself in an attempt to stand up to Russia. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1669 "2014-03-21T10:40:55Z")
The question raised in this thread has been answered. The West will respond with moral condemnation and minor sanctions. Nothing to see here, move on. It’s big power politics as usual. All the major players on the world’s stage, Russia, the USA, China, the European powers, will ignore trifles such as international law when they feel their interests threatened or are secure in the conviction of their own moral superiority. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1670 "2014-03-21T11:09:30Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > The question raised in this thread has been answered. The West will respond with moral condemnation and minor sanctions. Nothing to see here, move on. It’s big power politics as usual. All the major players on the world’s stage, Russia, the USA, China, the European powers, will ignore trifles such as international law when they feel their interests threatened or are secure in the conviction of their own moral superiority. I’m sure you are right in general that this will now evaporate fron being news as did the so-called invasion of Grorgia. The same western players should have learned something since 2008 but they didnt. They need to learn something right now but they probably won’t. The correct course for grownup nations to do would be to pressure Ukraine to become Federalized as the Russians suggest and as Obama says there is no need for Ukrainians to be forced to choose between the West and Russia. Economic and political recovery has its best shot in a Federalized Ukraine and Crimea returned to her rightful place. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1671 "2014-03-21T13:24:30Z")
I have this crazy belief that countries like Ukraine should decide their own fate and how much they wish to federalize and that countries like the US and Russia should stay the fuck out. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1672 "2014-03-21T14:07:01Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Economic and political recovery has its best shot in a Federalized Ukraine and Crimea returned to her rightful place. In Ukraine or in Russia? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1673 "2014-03-21T14:23:44Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Even your scholars tentatively call it a coup and not constitutional. What is your point? I wasn’t citing the blogger’s opinion (I have no idea who he is or what his qualifications are), but rather the neat, useful chart of various scholarly definitions of “coup”, which aren’t met by the events in Ukraine. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > What matters outside the scholarly world is that Putin was not tentative at all as seeing it as a coup and as not constitutional. The replacement president is not legit. Putin’s thoughts on the matter weren’t the issue, it was _your_ use of “coup” and “Western-backed”. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1674 "2014-03-21T14:36:15Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Putin’s thoughts on the matter weren’t the issue, it was _your_ use of “coup” and “Western-backed”. Yep, it’s kind of inaccurate. It was US backed, via USAid to be exact. I see this morning the EU and US are extending their backing of Ukraine. Not so keen on seeing the democratic leader restored to power then. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1675 "2014-03-21T14:45:22Z")
[QUOTE=BrokenBriton] I see this morning the EU and US are extending their backing of Ukraine. Not so keen on seeing the democratic leader restored to power then. [/QUOTE] Wonder why they wouldn’t be so keen on putting that guy back into power. 😛 > [@](#): > > Yep, it’s kind of inaccurate. It was US backed, via USAid to be exact. Since you are claiming to be exact, I’m sure you have a cite for this, right? This should be good. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1676 "2014-03-21T14:53:29Z")
A brief google found direct quotes from an interview with “former Ohio congressman and Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich”, but I guess you could find that yourself if at all interested. tbh, Idon’t need convincing so I’ll leave it with your keen intellect. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1677 "2014-03-21T14:53:46Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > I see this morning the EU and US are extending their backing of Ukraine. Not so keen on seeing the democratic leader restored to power then. The current government is only temporary, as there will be a (hopefully free and properly organised) new election in two months’ time. I’m sure Yuschenko will be allowed to stand for re-election and become the democratically-elected leader again. 😉 That election will be key. If Ukraine is able to have fair and free elections observed by outside forces, we’ll be able to move forward. The EU should really wait until then instead of signing agreements with the current temporary government. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1678 "2014-03-21T14:55:13Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > A brief google found direct quotes from an interview with “former Ohio congressman and Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich”, but I guess you could find that yourself if at all interested. > > tbh, Idon’t need convincing so I’ll leave it with your keen intellect. So, that would be a ‘no’ then…you don’t have a cite, but instead suggest I google it myself? Ok, noted. Thanks for playing. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1679 "2014-03-21T15:00:36Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > The current government is only temporary, as there will be a (hopefully free and properly organised) new election in two months’ time. I’m sure Yuschenko will be allowed to stand for re-election and become the democratically-elected leader again. 😉 > > That election will be key. If Ukraine is able to have fair and free elections observed by outside forces, we’ll be able to move forward. The EU should really wait until then instead of signing agreements with the current temporary government. Remind me, what was wrong with the Parliamentary election in 2012 given "on election day (28 October) there were 3,500 accredited foreign observers.[102] The observers from the European Academy for Elections Observation (most of whom where European Parliament members), stated it was “a good election, not perfect but clearly acceptable”? > **[2012 Ukrainian parliamentary election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_parliamentary_election,_2012#International_observers)** > > Mykola Azarov > Party of Regions > Mykola Azarov > Party of Regions > Parliamentary elections were held in Ukraine on 28 October 2012. Because of various reasons, including the "impossibility of announcing election results" various by-elections have taken place since. Hence, several constituencies have been left unrepresented at various times. Just the wrong result for the US? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1680 "2014-03-21T15:01:59Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So, that would be a ‘no’ then…you don’t have a cite, but instead suggest I google it myself? Ok, noted. Thanks for playing. I’m not here to convince you. Educate yourself or wrap yourself a little tighter in the flag: your choice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=83) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=85)