# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 87
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1721 "2014-03-22T23:04:40Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] And, exactly, how do you know that those involved in the coup represent a majority of Ukranians? Mind you, the majority of which democratically elected Yanukovych. [/QUOTE] Well, they are planning elections in May. And, curiously enough, it won’t be under the guns of the Russians (or NATO or the EU or even the evil Americans). So, I guess we’ll know then, right? As for the democratically elected Yanukovych, well, an election isn’t a suicide pact. Yeah, he was elected…and then he pissed off enough of his population to make beating a hasty retreat seem like a good idea (after killing a number of them first, just for fun I’m sure). > [@](#): > > Just because the US sanctions a coup doesn’t make it anything other than what it is: a coup. And just because it pissed off Russia, who has delusions of re-unifying their former empire doesn’t mean that it’s a bad thing either. And an invasion by any other name smells as sweet, right Red? > [@](#): > > Dunno. Did you? Because you sure are defending the coup. Considering it was an internal matter among the Ukrainians, and the fact that they were a bit provoked, I’m going to go with ‘yeah’. Seems to me there was more justification in the ‘coup’ than there was for Russia to intervene, using the excuse of the ‘threat’ to the Russian speaking portion of the Crimea to snag some land back into the fold. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1722 "2014-03-22T23:22:53Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > What do you think is unsupported? What do you think is supported? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1723 "2014-03-22T23:24:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t need an argument to prove an unsupported assertion you made is right. You need to prove it’s right first. But don’t bother. I stopped debating with you awhile back. If you feel like showing the rest of the readers here exactly why you are wrong, knock yourself out. > [@](#): > > Under deals done in December 2013, Russia is Ukraine’s principal financier. Moscow agreed to buy US$15bn-worth of Ukrainian government debt over the next 12 months and to make sizeable cuts in the price it charges Ukraine for gas. Without those two forms of aid, Ukraine’s budget and economic course are not tenable. And more: > [@](#): > > Both forms of aid can swiftly be withdrawn. Russia bought the first US$3bn in Ukrainian state debt in December, but plans announced last week for a further US$2bn tranche are now on hold. The gas price was cut from over US$400 per 1,000 cubic metres in 2014 to US$286.50 per 1,000 cubic metres for the first quarter of this year, but without a fresh agreement for the second quarter it will revert to the old price. To compound matters, Gazprom says Ukraine owes approximately US$2bn for gas supplied since October 2014; even the cheaper supplies this year have not been paid for in full. The contracts give Russia the right to switch off supply and demand that Ukraine pay up front. Read More: [http://www.iiss.org/en/iiss%20voices/blogsections/iiss-voices-2014-b4d9/february-72f2/ukraine-russias-reversal-7e2e](http://www.iiss.org/en/iiss%20voices/blogsections/iiss-voices-2014-b4d9/february-72f2/ukraine-russias-reversal-7e2e) Do you think Putin is going to pick up Ukraine’s debt ever again or cut the price gas after they join the EU? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1724 "2014-03-22T23:31:11Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What do you think is supported? See previous post. Do you deny it? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1725 "2014-03-22T23:33:25Z")
Deny what specifically? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1726 "2014-03-23T00:16:04Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > See previous post. Do you deny it? That Putin picked up $15 bn in Ukraine’s debt. And charged Ukraine less for gas than the EU pays. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1727 "2014-03-23T02:13:32Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Apparently the side in Ukraine that seized power unconstitutionally want you and me here in the USA to pay billions of dollars for the natural gas they purchase from Russia. And you seem to be fine with all of that. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > [Wrong.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=715398) Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1728 "2014-03-23T02:30:10Z")
Although it’s only a thought experiment, I’d love to see what justification we’d hear from our “Putin guys” if a) Russian troops make a move on, say, Estonia “to defend Russian minorities”. b) A Russian Oblast, say, Karelia, holds an illegal referendum, delcares independence and then Russian troops go there and conquer it. > [@RedFury](#): > > Dunno. Did you? Because you sure are defending the coup. > > Viva Franco, no? Mejor que “Viva Stalin”, ¿no? ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1729 "2014-03-23T02:30:49Z")
I think Ukrainians should gird themselves for the coming war and sabotage the Russian pipelines running through their country. They should also start making things very hard for the Russian troops occupying their nation. This is before Russian consolidate their strange hold upon their country. The only way to beat back the Russian incursion is to make the cost of the invasion far higher than Putin anticipated or can reasonably sell to the Russian public. While ordinary Russians might be “happy” with obtaining the Crimea again, they won’t be happy seeing Russian soldiers returning dead and wounded to their homeland. The West needs to simply strengthen its NATO positions near the country, keep economic sanctions against Russia in place and sit back and wait. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1730 "2014-03-23T02:46:31Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > I think Ukrainians should gird themselves for the coming war and sabotage the Russian pipelines running through their country. They should also start making things very hard for the Russian troops occupying their nation. This is before Russian consolidate their strange hold upon their country. What good would sabotaging the pipelines do? What could possibly make it hard for Russian troops living in Crimses that is now a part of the Russuan Federation? it was reported that around 80% of Crimeans are expected to apply for Russian citizenship and obtain their Russian passports in the next 30 days. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1731 "2014-03-23T03:15:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Emphasis added. Do you think Yatz wants Economic aid from the US? > [@](#): > > U.S. President Barack Obama hosts Ukraine’s interim prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, at the White House Wednesday. > > The White House says the president will stress his strong support for the Ukrainian people and talk about economic aid. The United States has already pledged $1 billion in aid to Ukraine. Read More: [Obama to Host Ukraine's Interim PM](http://m.voanews.com/a/obama-to-host-ukraines-interim-pm/1869209.html) Ukraine is in debt to Russia for over a billion for natural gas it has used. Foreign aid will help them pay that bill and others of course. Do you oppose giving economic aid to the protesters in Ukraine and the PM who speaks for them coming to the WH asking for aid money? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1732 "2014-03-23T03:28:11Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Although it’s only a thought experiment, I’d love to see what justification we’d hear from our “Putin guys” if > > a) Russian troops make a move on, say, Estonia “to defend Russian minorities”. > b) A Russian Oblast, say, Karelia, holds an illegal referendum, delcares independence and then Russian troops go there and conquer it. Does your thought experiment involve a breakdown of constitutional law in Estonia and then a formerly pro-Russian semi-autonomous well-defined region once never part of Estonia, initiate steps to secede? ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1733 "2014-03-23T03:45:30Z")
Is this the wrong place to bring up the fact that one of Putin’s goals is to stop EU from taking over Russia too? This conflict will delay the EU take over of the entire Ukraine and leave Russia with a base for their Navy to defend the motherland. EU vs the USD was $1.28 last year and is now somewhere around $1.43 American is on the wrong side I tell you … it’s EU that has to be stopped not Russia :smack: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1734 "2014-03-23T03:48:08Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Do you think Yatz wants Economic aid from the US? You’re suppose to show that “I seem to be fine with all that”. Like I said: knock yourself out substantiating that. I’m not going to debate you, because I know it’s not true, and you have done nothing more than assert it without proof. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1735 "2014-03-23T03:50:43Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > Is this the wrong place to bring up the fact that one of Putin’s goals is to stop EU from taking over Russia too? > > This conflict will delay the EU take over of the entire Ukraine and leave Russia with a base for their Navy to defend the motherland. > > EU vs the USD was $1.28 last year and is now somewhere around $1.43 > > American is on the wrong side I tell you … it’s EU that has to be stopped not Russia :smack: It’s not the wrong place to bring it up, but you need to offer some sort of coherent argument. Start by explaining how “the EU takes over Russia”. And you might want to expound on what the dollar/euro exchange rate has to do with the price of borsht in Moscow. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1736 "2014-03-23T03:58:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s not the wrong place to bring it up, but you need to offer some sort of coherent argument. Start by explaining how “the EU takes over Russia”. And you might want to expound on what the dollar/euro exchange rate has to do with the price of borsht in Moscow. I thought it was common knowledge that EU alliance includes NATO … that’s enough to put Mr Putin on defense. Plus Russia controls the banks not a pre-selected country. I will back off if know one see’s a danger in EU being in charge of all the money on the other side of the world. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1737 "2014-03-23T04:26:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re suppose to show that “I seem to be fine with all that”. > > Like I said: knock yourself out substantiating that. I’m not going to debate you, because I know it’s not true, and you have done nothing more than assert it without proof. Since you inject your dissagreement with my views on this historic episode in Europe by telling me Im wrong it seems: (A) you want to debate me. And (B) you support giving financial aid to the Protest Movement in Ukraine that reversed an election to change the course of government. If ‘it seems’ is not correct and you agree with me the US should not reward this protest achievement, then you could just say so and move on. Do you agree with Rand Paul here at all; > [@](#): > > Paul called for suspending American aid and loans to Ukraine on grounds that “these could have the counterproductive effect of rewarding Russia.” According to Paul, Ukraine “owes so much money to Russia that America would essentially be borrowing from China to give to Russia.” > > Read Latest Breaking News from [Newsmax.com](http://Newsmax.com) [http://www.newsmaxworld.com/GlobalTalk/Ukraine-Russia-Rand-Paul/2014/03/10/id/557156#ixzz2wkllVVhw](http://www.newsmaxworld.com/GlobalTalk/Ukraine-Russia-Rand-Paul/2014/03/10/id/557156#ixzz2wkllVVhw) Hint: If you don’t want to debate me don’t respond to my posts and tell me I’m wrong and link your argument to meaningless words from the Pit. I consider that a personal insult that has nothing to do with the debate going on here. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1738 "2014-03-23T05:03:48Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Do you think Yatz wants Economic aid from the US? > > Read More: [Obama to Host Ukraine's Interim PM](http://m.voanews.com/a/obama-to-host-ukraines-interim-pm/1869209.html) > > Ukraine is in debt to Russia for over a billion for natural gas it has used. Foreign aid will help them pay that bill and others of course. > > Do you oppose giving economic aid to the protesters in Ukraine and the PM who speaks for them coming to the WH asking for aid money? The Ukraine can easily say the land and military equipment that Russia has seized at least equals any debt. I bet Russia is out that money. Fairly too I might add. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1739 "2014-03-23T05:54:15Z")
Memo from the White House…pay no attention to those who would point out the US invaded three sovereign nations and is attempting to overthrow the leadership in Iran, while admonishing Russia for _peacefully annexing Crimea_, which it has… Meanwhile, today Iraq is embroiled in a civil war that has taken the lives of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and created untold misery for those who survived. In addition to their loss lost 5000 soldiers and another 40,000 maimed for life while wasting over one trillion dollars. Afghanistan? Twice over – now the corner state of the poppy trade and out of the US’s hand other than beat tail. Compare that with the Russian take over of Crimea. See any difference? And you want to take _them_ on in their own backyard? There’s a laugh that we will all regret. Yeah, the Star-spangled blinder. Good luck with that. Or rather stop imposing _your_ idea of justice world-wide. Glad someone is ready to stand-up to you. And you have no balls/capability to do anything about it. But yeah, whining is fine. With crackers… ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1740 "2014-03-23T06:00:45Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The Ukraine can easily say the land and military equipment that Russia has seized at least equals any debt. I bet Russia is out that money. Fairly too I might add. Russia’s doing just fine: [**Russian economy becomes biggest in Europe**](http://rbth.com/business/2013/07/17/russian_economy_becomes_biggest_in_europe_28149.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=86) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=88)