# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 90
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1781 "2014-03-24T02:30:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Of course the Russians are rallying behind Putin. Should we also post that the sky is blue? > > What’s more interesting is that those crying “nationalism = bad” about Ukraine are silent when it comes to Russia. You should try to follow the discussion between nevadaexile and myself and in that context before wasting our time with your unwitty sarcasm. I am not silent about Russian nationalism. Who are you talking about? Russian nationalism right now is about agreement to take Crimea back into the Russian Federation. Its not about blowing up gas pipelines. On 03-03-2014 at 04:48 PM you wrote in response to RickJay: > [@](#): > > Exactly. I don’t think any of us has a problem with a democratic and constitutional effort by Crimea to split off from Ukraine and be either independent or part of Russia. But what is happening now is not the way to do it. This is blatant military aggression on Russia’s part. Its nice you don’t have a ‘problem’ with it but you fail to comprehend that there was NO democratic and constitutional way for Crimea to separate from Ukraine. So when Ukraine’s constitution fell under the stress of violence under the joint leadership of that Russian hating Yarosh fellow, the Crimeans took the steps they needed to declare independence from Ukraine and they got it done. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1782 "2014-03-24T02:35:17Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Russian nationalism right now is about agreement to take Crimea back into the Russian Federation. Its not about blowing up gas pipelines. When Russia was invaded, “Russian nationalism” was all about blowing up dambs, bridges and train tracks (and later in the process, carpet-bombing the enemy’s cities). So why are you surprised that “Ukrainian nationalism” is contemplating the same measures in the same circumstances? War is war. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1783 "2014-03-24T02:44:46Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Its nice you don’t have a ‘problem’ with it but you fail to comprehend that there was NO democratic and constitutional way for Crimea to separate from Ukraine. You keep saying this and yet you have never shown it to be true or even explained why it would be true. What was preventing Ukraine from conducting negotiations with the government of Kiev to arrange for a referendum and subsequent negotiations for independence? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1784 "2014-03-24T02:44:52Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Are you saying that Yarosh didn’t say what he said and it is nothing but Russian government propaganda that is reporting that he did? This is like responding that the Korean Central News Agency is a good source for information, because Kim Jong Un was, in fact, honored by gifts presented from the Los Angeles Branch of the Juche Movement. If Kim did indeed receive such a gift, then it must not be propaganda! ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1785 "2014-03-24T03:10:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > This is like responding that the Korean Central News Agency is a good source for information, because Kim Jong Un was, in fact, honored by gifts presented from the Los Angeles Branch of the Juche Movement. If Kim did indeed receive such a gift, then it must not be propaganda! So the Forbes confirmation doesn’t suit you and you have no rebuttal that that this Yarosh extremist that we are backing said no such thing. Of course you must attack the source when you cannot attack the argument. Things can be true even if Western major news media does not cover it. Forbes in a little read business report mentions the Ukraine news agency reported this. I can accept that. And you cannot demonstrate that it is like that the RT is lying. If it were untrue and Russian propaganda I’m sure this Yarosh asswipe would be complaining about it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1786 "2014-03-24T03:14:04Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So the Forbes confirmation doesn’t suit you and you have no rebuttal that that this Yarosh extremist that we are backing said no such thing. Can you explain, first, what your problem is with “this Yarosh extremist’s” statement? Do you think that in case Russia invades Ukraine, sabotaging the pipelines that deliver Russian natural gas to Europe is an irrational, or “extreme” reaction? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1787 "2014-03-24T03:31:20Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You keep saying this and yet you have never shown it to be true or even explained why it would be true. What was preventing Ukraine from conducting negotiations with the government of Kiev to arrange for a referendum and subsequent negotiations for independence? Here you go: > [@](#): > > Article 134. The Autonomous Republic of Crimea shall be an integral constituent part of Ukraine and shall resolve issues relegated to its authority within the frame of its reference, determined by the Constitution of Ukraine. And this on making amendments to the Constitution. > [@](#): > > Article 157. The Constitution of Ukraine shall not be amended, if the amendments foresee the abolition or restriction of human and citizen rights and freedoms, or if they are aimed at the liquidation of the independence or violation of the territorial integrity of Ukraine > **[Crimean Secession and the Irrelevance of Ukraine's Constitution](https://reason.com/2014/03/12/the-irrelevance-of-ukraines-constitution/)** > > Obama says voting to secede is unconstitutional. So what? No Amendnemnts if they are aimed at **violation of the territorial integrity of Ukraine** More from that link: > [@](#): > > It is true that Ukraine’s constitution does not allow Crimea’s regional parliament to unilaterally hold a plebiscite on secession (even leaving aside the question of whether a free and fair vote can take place while Russian forces control the peninsula). But neither does the constitution allow the national parliament to peremptorily remove the president from office, as legislators purported to do with Viktor Yanukovych last month. > > The constitution specifies an impeachment procedure, including appointment of an investigative commission, a two-thirds parliamentary vote to bring charges, a three-quarters vote to convict, and review by the Constitutional Court. Legislators did not follow that procedure. Instead they declared Yanukovych unable to perform his duties, a move authorized only if the incapacity is due to “health reasons.” > > Obama nevertheless recognizes the current regime as “the legitimate government of Ukraine” and declares, “We are well beyond the days when borders can be redrawn over the heads of democratic leaders.” Yanukovych may be a corrupt thug, but he was democratically elected, and his removal was unconstitutional. > > Does that matter? Maybe not. The Ukrainian Constitution, which replaced the Soviet-era version, was itself approved by legislators in 1996. What gave them the authority to do that? > > If legitimacy is based on the consent of the governed, there is an obvious problem with any constitution approved by a less-than-unanimous vote of elected representatives. Even if we assume that each legislator inerrantly represents the will of his constituents, all of whom are of one mind, a minority clearly has not agreed to abide by what will henceforth be treated as the supreme law. > > Imagine a club that includes only people who voluntarily join. If the members all agree to basic rules for the club’s operation (including rules for changing the rules), no member can reasonably call a decision by the club illegitimate, as long as the rules are followed. > > Not so with constitutions approved by a mere majority. The legislators who voted against the current Ukrainian Constitution did not approve it, and no doubt many citizens, including ethnic Russians in Crimea who would prefer to be part of Russia, would have voted no as well. > > If Crimea’s Russian majority approves secession, of course, they will also be overriding the will of a minority, including dissenting Russians as well as Tatars and ethnic Ukrainians. But when Obama says a vote cannot decide the region’s fate because the Ukrainian Constitution forbids it, why should his argument carry any weight with people who never consented to that constitution? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1788 "2014-03-24T03:34:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Can you explain, first, what your problem is with “this Yarosh extremist’s” statement? Do you think that in case Russia invades Ukraine, sabotaging the pipelines that deliver Russian natural gas to Europe is an irrational, or “extreme” reaction? Are you saying Russia did not ‘invade’ Ukraine? And if Russia in fact did launch a full scale invasion of all of Ukraine beyond Crimea… I’m sure they’d have shut the gas off by that level of hostilities. Don’t you thinks. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1789 "2014-03-24T03:46:08Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Are you saying Russia did not ‘invade’ Ukraine? Yes, it did. How did you get the idea that I said it didn’t? > [@](#): > > And if Russia in fact did launch a full scale invasion of all of Ukraine beyond Crimea… I’m sure they’d have shut the gas off by that level of hostilities. Don’t you thinks. Only “full scale invasion”? If it is a “partial” invasion, do you think it would be an irrational reaction by Ukrainians to sabotage the pipelines that carry Russian natural gas to Europe? Again, do explain, what is your problem with Yarosh’s “extremist” statement? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1790 "2014-03-24T04:04:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, it did. How did you get the idea that I said it didn’t? Why did you ask me \*‘in case Russia invades Ukraine’ \*at 11:34 PM? > [@](#): > > Do you think that in case Russia invades Ukraine, sabotaging the pipelines that deliver Russian natural gas to Europe is an irrational, or “extreme” reaction? You didn’t ask if Russia invades Ukraine any further than Crimea. Just wanted to verify what you are saying. Is that what you are saying? And it is absolutely irrational to blow up even small sections of the pipelines if the Russian Tanks and Air Force were on the move in any kind of invasion. It is more irrational if it were a ‘partial’ invasion. It would accomplish nothing because Russia would or could shut off the gas anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1791 "2014-03-24T04:06:49Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Why did you ask me \*‘in case Russia invades Ukraine’ \*at 11:34 PM? As a “what if” question. Whether it happened already or didn’t is irrelevant to the question. > [@](#): > > You didn’t ask if Russia invades Ukraine any further than Crimea. Just wanted to verify what you are saying. Is that what you are saying? No, that is not what I am saying. I think Ukrainians are quite justified to sabotage the pipelines already, since the invasion already happened. > [@](#): > > And it is absolutely irrational to blow up even small sections of the pipelines if the Russian Tanks and Air Force were on the move in any kind of invasion. It is more irrational if it were a ‘partial’ invasion. It would accomplish nothing because Russia would or could shut off the gas anyway. It would shut off gas during the invasion, sure. But blowing up the pipelines would ensure Russia would not be able to turn it back on, and would not be getting paid for its natural gas for quite a while after, if ever. So - how would that be irrational? And, for the third time, you still didn’t explain - what is your problem with Yarosh’s “extremist” statement? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1792 "2014-03-24T04:19:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It would shut off gas during the invasion, sure. But blowing up the pipelines would ensure Russia would not be able to turn it back on, and would not be getting paid for its natural gas for quite a while after, if ever. So - how would that be irrational? > > And, for the third time, you still didn’t explain - what is your problem with Yarosh’s “extremist” statement? Its irrational and stupid to blow up the pipelines and specifically if the objective is to make sure that Russia does not get paid for the gas it is supplying. If EU countries including Ukraine think it would be effective to cease buying gas from Russia they can refuse to take any more deliveries. This nutjob Yaresh is trying to make the decision for the rest of Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1793 "2014-03-24T04:24:21Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Its irrational and stupid to blow up the pipelines and specifically if the objective is to make sure that Russia does not get paid for the gas it is supplying. If EU countries including Ukraine think it would be effective to cease buying gas from Russia they can refuse to take any more deliveries. This nutjob Yaresh is trying to make the decision for the rest of Europe. Huh? Ukraine does not control EU and what it does. Ukraine does, though, aspire to control its own territory. If invaded, it would be stupid and irrational of Ukraine to expect EU to support it to the point of not buying natural gas from Russia - especially after the joke of “sanctions” that EU and US have put in place right now. So it would be supremely rational to blow up and sabotage as much of those pipelines as they can. Yarosh’s threat is rational and logical (and, I can only hope, not a bluff). Your sycophantic support of Russian fascism blinds you to that. And that’s a generous assessment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1794 "2014-03-24T05:33:00Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You should try to follow the discussion between nevadaexile and myself and in that context before wasting our time with your unwitty sarcasm. No one is forcing you to read my posts. Don’t like them, don’t read them. > [@](#): > > I am not silent about Russian nationalism. Why would you think I was talking about you? Did I call you out by name? Is it your contention that no one in this thread has criticized Ukrainian nationalism? Perhaps it is you who should follow what is going on this thread and stop thinking that everything is about you. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1795 "2014-03-24T06:08:38Z")
[**Obama to Putin: Do as I Say Not as I Do**](http://original.antiwar.com/ralph-nader/2014/03/23/obama-to-putin-do-as-i-say-not-as-i-do/) > [@](#): > > The need to abide by international law is your recent recurring refrain, often used in an accusatory context toward Mr. Putin’s military entry in Crimea and its subsequent annexation, following a referendum in which Crimean voters overwhelmingly endorsed rejoining Russia. True, most Ukrainians and ethnic Tatars boycotted the referendum and there were obstacles to free speech. But even the fairest of referendums, under UN auspices, would have produced majority support for Russia’s annexation. > > \*\*Every day, presidential actions by you violate international law because they infringe upon national sovereignties with deadly drones, flyovers and secret forays by soldiers – to name the most obvious. > > President Bush’s criminal invasion and devastation of Iraq in 2003 violated international law and treaties initiated and signed by the United States (such as the Geneva Conventions and the UN Charter). What about your executive branch’s war on Libya, now still in chaos, which was neither constitutionally declared, nor authorized by Congressional appropriations? > > “Do as I say, not as I do,” is hard to sell to Russians who are interpreting your words of protest as disingenuous. This is especially the case because Crimea, long under the rule of the Ottoman Empire, became part of Russia over 200 years ago. In 1954, Soviet leader, Nikita Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine, which was then part of the Soviet Union, out of sympathy for what Ukraine endured under the Nazi invasion and its atrocities. It mattered little then because both “socialist republics,” Ukraine and Crimea, were part of the Soviet Union. However, it is not entirely clear whether Khrushchev fully complied with the Soviet constitution when he transferred Crimea to Ukraine. > > Compare, by the way, the United States’ seizure of Guantanamo from Cuba initially after the Spanish-American War, which was then retained after Cuba became independent over a century ago. > \*\* > The Russians have their own troubles, of course, but they do have a legitimate complaint and fear about the United States’ actions following the collapse of the Soviet Union. Led by President William Jefferson Clinton, the United States pushed for the expansion of the military alliance NATO to include the newly independent Eastern European countries. This was partly a business deal to get these countries to buy United States fighter aircrafts from Lockheed Martin and partly a needless provocation of a transformed adversary trying to get back on its feet. > > As a student of Russian history and language at Princeton, I learned about the deep sensitivity of the Russian people regarding the insecurity of their Western Front. Hitler’s attack on the Soviet Union took many millions of Russian lives. The prolonged Nazi siege of the city of Leningrad alone is estimated to have cost over 700,000 civilian lives, which is about twice the total number of United States soldiers killed in World War II. > > The memories of that mass slaughter and destruction, and of other massacres and valiant resistance are etched deeply in Russian minds. The NATO provocation was only one of the West’s arrogant treatments of post-Soviet Russia, pointed out in the writings of Russian specialist, NYU professor Stephen Cohen (see his pieces in The Nation). That sense of disrespect, coupled with the toppling of the elected pro-Russian President of Ukraine in February, 2014 (which was not lawful despite his poor record) is why Mr. Putin’s absorption of Crimea and his history-evoking speech before the Parliament, was met with massive support in Russia even by many of those who have good reasons to not like his authoritarian government. > > \*\*Now, you are facing the question of how far to go with sanctions against the Russian government, its economy and its ruling class. Welcome to globalization. > > Russia is tightly intertwined with the European Union, as a seller and buyer of goods, services and assets, and to a lesser but significant degree with the United States government and its giant corporations such as oil and technology companies. Sanctions can boomerang, which would be far worse than just being completely ineffective in reversing the Russian annexation of Crimea. > > As for sanctions deterring any unlikely future Russian moves westward into Ukraine, consider the following role reversal. If Russia moved for sanctions against the United States before Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Yemen and other attacks, would that have deterred either you or George W. Bush from taking such actions? Of course not. Such an outcome, politically and domestically, would not be possible.\*\* much more at source. Delicious. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1796 "2014-03-24T06:17:03Z")
Funny & factual read: [**Taking on Putin: The Gessen Plan**](http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/03/23/taking-on-putin-the-gessen-plan/) US, take your ball and go home. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1797 "2014-03-24T13:35:28Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So if the scholars that Human Action cited call it a coup and Vladimir Putin calls it a coup it does not matter because anybody who does is wrong because Human Action thinks its not. Two posts before that: > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > How do you arrive at "reviving trade ties with Moscow’ as selling out to a foreign interest? > > … > > How do you arrive at "reviving trade ties with Moscow’ as selling out to a foreign interest? So if the people of Ukraine thought Yanukovich was selling out their country, it doesn’t matter because anybody who does is wrong because NotfooledbyW thinks he wasn’t? Nice double standard, there. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1798 "2014-03-24T13:44:20Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**Obama to Putin: Do as I Say Not as I Do**](http://original.antiwar.com/ralph-nader/2014/03/23/obama-to-putin-do-as-i-say-not-as-i-do/) > > much more at source. Delicious. **Red** : I know you like it that Putin is sticking it to the US (as well as all of Western Europe), and I’m OK with that. But seriously, dude, we are looking at another potential Yugoslavia (only bigger) and Putin is not helping-- he’s hurting. This is much bigger than a tiff between Putin and Obama, and not a laughing matter. Do you really want another war in Europe? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1799 "2014-03-24T13:48:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **Red** : I know you like it that Putin is sticking it to the US (as well as all of Western Europe), and I’m OK with that. But seriously, dude, we are looking at another potential Yugoslavia (only bigger) and Putin is not helping-- he’s hurting. This is much bigger than a tiff between Putin and Obama, and not a laughing matter. Do you really want another war in Europe? As long as it makes the US look bad, obviously. And Ralph Nader? The man who brought us Dubya? Really? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1800 "2014-03-24T14:38:03Z")
I thought I’d post this (opinion) piece from CNN: > [@](#): > > Opinion: Putin’s breathtaking lies about Russia > [@](#): > > (CNN) – Vladimir Putin’s gala address before Russian parliamentarians and officials Tuesday surprised no one when he announced Russia’s annexation of Crimea. The interesting part was his distorted view of Russian history, and his proclamation that a bizarre kind of simultaneously aggrieved and aggressive hyper-nationalism is now Russia’s official ideology. > > In discussing Ukraine, however, Putin seemed to go out of his way to suggest he had no aggressive intentions and was not planning to divide the rest of the country. > > Listening to Putin, one could easily forget that Russia is and for many centuries has been the largest country in the world and that it acquired its territories by imperialist expansion often accompanied by genocide and ethnic cleansing. > > Instead, Putin prefers to see Russia as having been permanently on the defensive, a victim of both Western and Communist machinations: "In a word, we have all the reasons to believe that the notorious policy of containing Russia, which was pursued in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries, is continuing to this day. > [@](#): > > After the Russian Revolution of 1917, according to Putin, it was the turn of the Bolsheviks to aggrieve Russia. Putin conveniently ignores that the vast majority of Bolsheviks were Russian and that the party Lenin founded was institutionally Russian as well. No matter. > > Putin says: “The Bolsheviks, for a number of reasons – may God judge them – added large sections of the historical South of Russia to the Republic of Ukraine. This was done with no consideration for the ethnic makeup of the population, and today these areas form the southeast of Ukraine. Then, in 1954, a decision was made to transfer Crimean Region to Ukraine. … What matters now is that this decision was made in clear violation of the constitutional norms that were in place even then.” > > Once again, Putin’s historical myopia is breathtaking: Nikita Khrushchev’s decision to grant Crimea to Ukraine was as constitutional as anything any Soviet Communist leader did in the entire period of the USSR’s existence. The Soviet Union rested on illegality and the systemic violation of human and civil rights. If Khrushchev was wrong, then that’s only because the USSR was wrong and should never have been created in the first place > [@](#): > > Unsurprisingly, there is no room in this narrative for the nation that Russian imperialism almost managed to annihilate – the Crimean Tatars. Russia conquered the Crimean Tatar khanate in 1783. Afterward, the Russian authorities forced the Tatars out of their ancestral homeland and replaced them with settlers from Russia. > > Tens of thousands of Tatars died or were killed; some two-thirds had to leave the Crimea. In 1944, the ethnic cleansing was completed when Stalin expelled the entire Crimean Tatar population – about 200,000 people – to Uzbekistan and some other Soviet regions. About half died on the way. It was only in the late 1980s that they began returning to their homeland to find that their land and their homes had been occupied by Russian settlers. > > Instead, Putin primarily explains why Crimea matters to Russia: “The graves of Russian soldiers whose bravery brought Crimea into the Russian empire are also in Crimea. This is also Sevastopol – a legendary city with an outstanding history, a fortress that serves as the birthplace of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet … symbolizing Russian military glory and outstanding valor.” > > And what of the Crimean Tatars? Here’s Putin: “True, there was a time when Crimean Tatars were treated unfairly, just as a number of other peoples in the USSR. There is only one thing I can say here: Millions of people of various ethnicities suffered during those repressions, and primarily Russians.” > > The mendacity is astounding. The Crimean Tatars were not just “treated unfairly” by some vague force. They were subjected to genocide by a Russian totalitarian empire. Russians also “suffered,” but the brunt of the suffering fell, as Yale historian Timothy Snyder describes in “Bloodlands,” on Poles and Ukrainians. > [@](#): > > “Today it is imperative to end the hysterics and to renounce the rhetoric of the ‘Cold War,’ and to recognize an obvious thing: Russia is an independent and active participant in international life, and it has, like other countries, its national interests, which must be acknowledged and respected.” > > And then, remarkably, Putin adopts a conciliatory tone with respect to Ukraine. Naturally, he first denounces the new democratic government as illegitimate and in the thrall of imaginary fascists and asserts Russia’s obligation to help defend Russians and Russian speakers from their supposed assaults and predations. > [@](#): > > Editor’s note: Alexander J. Motyl is professor of political science at Rutgers University-Newark. He was associate director of the Harriman Institute at Columbia University from 1992 through 1998. A specialist on Ukraine, Russia and the former Soviet Union, Motyl is the author of six academic books and several novels, including “The Jew Who Was Ukrainian,” “My Orchidia” and “Sweet Snow.” He writes a weekly blog on “Ukraine’s Orange Blues” for World Affairs Journal. I post this because there are certain posters in this thread who have attempted to spin this entire sorry event from a Russian perspective. This gives a different view of some of those key discussion points. Note that this IS an opinion piece…note because some of the, er, highly conjectural things posted previously in this thread are presented nearly as fact, and I’m making no such claims. I’m sure some will be in quickly to dismiss this for it’s hyperbolic language while giving a pass to the other sides hyperbole, but I just wanted to give a different, non-Pro-Russian (rah rah!) view point. While I don’t see this sort of thing as a flag waving/wrapping pro-America (rah rah!) viewpoint, I’m sure I’ll get more of that as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=89) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=91)