# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 91
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1801 "2014-03-24T14:43:45Z")
Forgot to include the [link](http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/19/opinion/motyl-putin-speech/index.html?iid=article_sidebar). ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1802 "2014-03-24T14:52:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Do you ever get at least a little bit embarassed by your frequent links to a state-owned propaganda network and trying to pass those stories off as “news”? > > [http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/liz-wahl-quit-russia-today-putins-pawn-104888.html](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/liz-wahl-quit-russia-today-putins-pawn-104888.html) Just a cheerful reminder that personal comments of a potentially derogatory nature are not permitted in Great Debates. So let’s not let this happen again, Mmm’kay? ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1803 "2014-03-24T17:43:32Z")
Well, [this sure is interesting.](http://rt.com/news/tymoshenko-calls-destroy-russia-917/) I know it’s taken from Russia Today, but apparently Tymoshenko herself has admitted that it’s her voice in the recording. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1804 "2014-03-24T18:29:26Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Well, [this sure is interesting.](http://rt.com/news/tymoshenko-calls-destroy-russia-917/) I know it’s taken from Russia Today, but apparently Tymoshenko herself has admitted that it’s her voice in the recording. She claims it’s her voice - but that the recording was edited to make it sound like she was saying something different. At least, according to your cite. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1805 "2014-03-24T18:33:39Z")
Its not practical, but I can understand it and would probably feel the same way as a Ukrainian. They did just steal part of the country after all. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1806 "2014-03-24T19:12:41Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > She claims it’s her voice - but that the recording was edited to make it sound like she was saying something different. At least, according to your cite. Yup, she claims that the ‘nuclear attack’ bit was edited. Which, if you listen to the recording again, kind of makes sense. But anyway, as **Captain Amazing** says, her attitude is almost understandable. And I’m not sure how much political power she has at this point ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1807 "2014-03-24T19:32:09Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > But anyway, as **Captain Amazing** says, her attitude is almost understandable. And I’m not sure how much political power she has at this point She’s still a symbol of the opposition. “Catching” her saying bad stuff will still carry weight. I think people in Ukraine should probably stop thinking their phone calls are private. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1808 "2014-03-24T19:43:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **Red** : I know you like it that Putin is sticking it to the US (as well as all of Western Europe), and I’m OK with that. But seriously, dude, we are looking at another potential Yugoslavia (only bigger) and Putin is not helping-- he’s hurting. This is much bigger than a tiff between Putin and Obama, and not a laughing matter. Do you really want another war in Europe? The thing that should concern us as citizens of Western nations is that Obama and the rest of the West are not helping either. They’d done a lot more to create the current situation than has Putin. Talking of associating Ukraine with NATO was such a harebrained stupid idea that it boggles the mind. The EU not much better. I’m not a political genius, but even I could foresee that a NATO bid would not end well for Ukraine. You can look back in my history and I’m pretty sure you’d find posts saying something along those lines. Why the hell couldn’t the best political minds of the United States foresee the same? You want to integrate the three countries Ukraine, Belorussia and Russia together into a Western framework. Not create rifts and suspicions by taking a divide and conquer approach. I’m going to Odessa next months. Apparently they’re pretty upset about a march earlier this month wherein hundreds of protesters had travelled to Odessa from western parts of Ukraine and marched through the streets shouting “Russians To The Knife.” So now a lot of Odessa citizens have taken to writing personally to Putin to ask for Odessa being made part of Russia. Crimea is gone for good. What Ukraine needs now is a reconciliation process if it wants to have a glimmer of hope of continuing to exist even in its current reduced size. How are western responses helping with this? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1809 "2014-03-24T20:18:48Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > She’s still a symbol of the opposition. “Catching” her saying bad stuff will still carry weight. I think people in Ukraine should probably stop thinking their phone calls are private. I would not limit that to Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1810 "2014-03-24T20:30:04Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The thing that should concern us as citizens of Western nations is that Obama and the rest of the West are not helping either. They’d done a lot more to create the current situation than has Putin. Talking of associating Ukraine with NATO was such a harebrained stupid idea that it boggles the mind. The EU not much better. I’m not a political genius, but even I could foresee that a NATO bid would not end well for Ukraine. You can look back in my history and I’m pretty sure you’d find posts saying something along those lines. Why the hell couldn’t the best political minds of the United States foresee the same? You want to integrate the three countries Ukraine, Belorussia and Russia together into a Western framework. Not create rifts and suspicions by taking a divide and conquer approach. > > I’m going to Odessa next months. Apparently they’re pretty upset about a march earlier this month wherein hundreds of protesters had travelled to Odessa from western parts of Ukraine and marched through the streets shouting “Russians To The Knife.” So now a lot of Odessa citizens have taken to writing personally to Putin to ask for Odessa being made part of Russia. > > Crimea is gone for good. What Ukraine needs now is a reconciliation process if it wants to have a glimmer of hope of continuing to exist even in its current reduced size. How are western responses helping with this? This again? Russia’s response had more do with Putin seeing his influence over Ukraine slipping away. No amount of “reconciliation” will ever make Putin not want to dominate Ukraine - the only “reconcilliation” he will accept is for Ukrainians to abjectly surrender sovereignty. The notion that this situation is _more_ the fault of the West than of Putin simply defies reality. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1811 "2014-03-24T20:32:21Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I would not limit that to Ukraine. But strangely enough, the phone calls that are being leaked are those of the EU-US-Ukraine bloc. Have you noticed how not a single one of Putin’s or Lavrov’s phone conversations has been leaked to the press? That’s where their KGB training makes a difference 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1812 "2014-03-24T21:22:37Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This again? Russia’s response had more do with Putin seeing his influence over Ukraine slipping away. No amount of “reconciliation” will ever make Putin not want to dominate Ukraine - the only “reconcilliation” he will accept is for Ukrainians to abjectly surrender sovereignty. What again. Ukraine needs an internal reconcilliation. Not one directed towards Russia. Although the one is probably not possible without the other. > [@Malthus](#): > > The notion that this situation is _more_ the fault of the West than of Putin simply defies reality. How’s that for an argument. Russian intervention in Ukraine would not have happened if not Ukraine had collapsed or were in general such a dysfunctional nation. Ukraine could perhaps had avoided collapse had the West acted with a little more foresight of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1813 "2014-03-24T21:27:21Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This again? Russia’s response had more do with Putin seeing his influence over Ukraine slipping away. So the West pushing, pushing, and pushing to expedite the loss of Russian influence is blameless? How can you be so blind? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1814 "2014-03-24T21:31:41Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > What again. Ukraine needs an internal reconcilliation. Not one directed towards Russia. Although the one is probably not possible without the other. Without Russia ceasing its aggression, no amount of “internal reconcilliation” will make the slightest lick of difference. > [@](#): > > How’s that for an argument. Russian intervention in Ukraine would not have happened if not Ukraine had collapsed or were in general such a dysfunctional nation. Ukraine could perhaps had avoided collapse had the West acted with a little more foresight of the situation. It isn;t the “collapse” of Ukraine as a “dysfunctional nation” that triggered the latest troubles, but the ouster of its head of state by an internal uprising, mainly in reaction against the perception he was attempting to set himself up as a dictator and a Russian puppet, and Russia’s reaction to that ouster. The West had little or nothing to do with that. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1815 "2014-03-24T21:36:09Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So the West pushing, pushing, and pushing to expedite the loss of Russian influence is blameless? How can you be so blind? Yes, the West is blameless - even praiseworthy - given that the “push” hasn’t come from the West, but from Russia’s neighbours, who are rightfully frightened of Russia exerting its “influence” in the ways we have all seen in the Crimean example. Appeasing Russian aggression isn’t the answer. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1816 "2014-03-24T21:45:45Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The thing that should concern us as citizens of Western nations is that Obama and the rest of the West are not helping either. They’d done a lot more to create the current situation than has Putin. Talking of associating Ukraine with NATO was such a harebrained stupid idea that it boggles the mind. The EU not much better. I’m not a political genius, but even I could foresee that a NATO bid would not end well for Ukraine. You can look back in my history and I’m pretty sure you’d find posts saying something along those lines. Why the hell couldn’t the best political minds of the United States foresee the same? You want to integrate the three countries Ukraine, Belorussia and Russia together into a Western framework. Not create rifts and suspicions by taking a divide and conquer approach. > > I’m going to Odessa next months. Apparently they’re pretty upset about a march earlier this month wherein hundreds of protesters had travelled to Odessa from western parts of Ukraine and marched through the streets shouting “Russians To The Knife.” So now a lot of Odessa citizens have taken to writing personally to Putin to ask for Odessa being made part of Russia. > > Crimea is gone for good. What Ukraine needs now is a reconciliation process if it wants to have a glimmer of hope of continuing to exist even in its current reduced size. How are western responses helping with this? Don’t much agree with you, but I admit you have this one covered. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1817 "2014-03-24T21:48:34Z")
PS – I also can’t, for the life of me, see any “experts” that would think Russia wouldn’t react to such a NATO outreach. Unless that was their goal. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1818 "2014-03-24T22:00:09Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > How’s that for an argument. Russian intervention in Ukraine would not have happened if not Ukraine had collapsed or were in general such a dysfunctional nation. Ukraine could perhaps had avoided collapse had the West acted with a little more foresight of the situation. “Rape is the victim’s fault for dressing like a whore”, international relations version? I agree that the West has been too ambitious in its actions, and chaos in Ukraine gave Russia an excuse to act… but the blame for the intervention has to fall on Russia, no-one else. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1819 "2014-03-24T22:05:34Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > “Rape is the victim’s fault for dressing like a whore”, international relations version? > > I agree that the West has been too ambitious in its actions, and chaos in Ukraine gave Russia an excuse to act… but the blame for the intervention has to fall on Russia, no-one else. Indeed. Russia was not acting to help Ukraine or even the Russian speakers in Ukraine. This was an opportunistic land grab, plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1820 "2014-03-24T22:13:05Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > “Rape is the victim’s fault for dressing like a whore”, international relations version? Now that’s just silly. International politics is not an episode of CSI. In any case, only if the majority disagreed with the result of the referendum was a crime committed. Or rather, it’s not really clear to me if people object to the incorporation of Crimea into Russia even if a majority of the Crimea population were in favour. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=90) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=92)