# Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513 "2014-02-28T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 95
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1881 "2014-03-25T21:20:14Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Yes. I posted it because **NotfooledbyW** offered Articles 134 and 157 as “a cite where the Ukraine Constitution actually ‘forbids Crimea’ from seceding”. It does no such thing, as Article 72 makes clear. > > The U.S. threshold is higher, as a state seceding would require a Constitutional amendment: Either a supermajority vote by Congress, or a national convention requested by at least 34 states, then ratification by at least 38 states. > > Is there some level of difficulty where the whole process can be justifably skipped, without any sort of honest attempt made? How are we to know what that level is? > > Say what you will about the Ukranian parliament’s removal of Yanukovych, while the procedure was only partially followed, at least it’s a power the parliament has, and they made an effort to exercise it legitimately. Along comes Human Action to quibble about my use of the word ‘forbids’ when the constitution of Ukraine hinders, prevents and makes it impossible’ the separation of Crimea from Ukraine in that actual definition of the word. I read somewhere that there was done kind if law prohibiting lawmakers or officials from discussing secession in Ukraine. I wonder if anyone has heard of that as I can’t find the source that mentioned that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1882 "2014-03-25T21:52:29Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > To **Capt S Party** : > > I thought I made it perfectly clear that I don’t want to live in a unipolar World. One where the US & its allies go romping around and basically do as they please; international law or not. > > And as **NfBW** , makes it clear in his last post, there’s simply no comparison in what the US did and what Russia has done in Crimea and what the US did – and mantains – in Iraq. “Illegitimacy” many times in the eyes of the beholder, and while, again, I don’t condone invasions, there’s a far cry from what Russia did in Crimea to what the US has done in the past decades all over the place. I simply want someone to stand-up to the worldly bully and make it think that they can’t “rule the world.” > > And as shown and proven, they can’t. Which, IMO, is a _good thing_. > > The end. Since when has Russia been inhibited by the US in doing whatever the hell it wants? Your logic is pretty crazy, though, since the net effect is to increase, rather than decrease, the amount of international disorder that exists. Surely, you don’t think the US is going to change what it does to suit the Russians. It’s like having a neighborhood over-run by one gang and cheering on another gang that comes in and “stands up” to the first gang. You say you don’t condone Russia’s actions, but you like the way they stand up to the US-- which is “Russia’s actions”. There are any number of ways they can “stand up” to the US without annexing part of anther country’s territory. And they do that all the time in the UNSC. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1883 "2014-03-25T22:07:50Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Along comes Human Action to quibble about my use of the word ‘forbids’ when the constitution of Ukraine hinders, prevents and makes it impossible’ the separation of Crimea from Ukraine in that actual definition of the word. How so? Does the U.S. Constitution forbid legalizing heroin? > [@](#): > > I read somewhere that there was done kind if law prohibiting lawmakers or officials from discussing secession in Ukraine. I wonder if anyone has heard of that as I can’t find the source that mentioned that. Unlikely to be constitutional, see Article 80. Members of the Ukrainian parliament enjoy parliamentary immunity and aren’t liable for statements made in parliament. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1884 "2014-03-25T22:10:29Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > How so? > > Does the U.S. Constitution forbid legalizing heroin? You’re “quibbling” because you proved him wrong. You know the drill. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1885 "2014-03-25T22:24:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Since when has Russia been inhibited by the US in doing whatever the hell it wants? Your logic is pretty crazy, though, since the net effect is to increase, rather than decrease, the amount of international disorder that exists. Surely, you don’t think the US is going to change what it does to suit the Russians. > > It’s like having a neighborhood over-run by one gang and cheering on another gang that comes in and “stands up” to the first gang. You say you don’t condone Russia’s actions, but you like the way they stand up to the US-- which is “Russia’s actions”. There are any number of ways they can “stand up” to the US without annexing part of anther country’s territory. And they do that all the time in the UNSC. I invite you to look up to look-up the vetos for each nation. Hardly comparable. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1886 "2014-03-25T22:28:36Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I invite you to look up to look-up the vetos for each nation. Hardly comparable. That was one example, and I honestly have no idea what you’re getting at. You think the US vetoes too many UNSC resolutions, therefore Russia gets to steal part of another country’s land? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1887 "2014-03-25T22:35:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That was one example, and I honestly have no idea what you’re getting at. You think the US vetoes too many UNSC resolutions, therefore Russia gets to steal part of another country’s land? Excuuuuse me? The US does basically what it wants. Period. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1888 "2014-03-25T22:43:28Z")
[**CHARTS: The Top 5 Land-Grabbing Countries**](http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2013/01/top-land-grabbing-countries) Read if you will ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1889 "2014-03-25T22:49:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re “quibbling” because you proved him wrong. You know the drill. Where has HA proven me wrong? The small size of the population of Crimea compared to all of Ukraine, and the number of ‘oblasts’ in Crimea compared to the number of ‘Oblasts’ on the mainland makes it impossible for Crimea to secede from Ukraine. Human Action has posted the paragraph that gives Crimea no chance of seceding through constitutional means when and if the context of the demographics and societal divisions within Ukraine are considered. Here it is. {An All-Ukrainian referendum is called on popular initiative on the request of no less than three million citizens of Ukraine who have the right to vote, on the condition that the signatures in favor of designating the referendum have been collected in no less than two-thirds of the oblasts, with no less than 100 000 signatures in each oblast.} ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1890 "2014-03-26T00:03:25Z")
Rep Rohrabacher (R-CA) Is about 99% there. Will this start a revision to the company line in the USA? > [@](#): > > GOP Rep. Defends Russia: ‘Not One Person Was Killed’ In Crimea > > Caitlin MacNeal – March 25, 2014, 2:44 PM EDT3758 Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA) on Tuesday defended Russia’s annexation of Crimea, arguing that the people of the region had a right to secede from Ukraine, Buzzfeed reported. > > “From what I understand, what happened in Crimea, not one person was killed. Maybe one — maybe there was one,” he said during a markup of the Ukraine Support Act in the House Foreign Affairs Committee. > “What happened in Kosovo, when we were supporting self-determination, which we should have supported, and in Sudan, where we’re talking about thousands of people who lost their lives. Yet we have to go and condemn the Russians, of course, when no one lost their life in an attempt to make sure the people of Crimea had a right to control their own destiny and their own self-determination.” > [@](#): > > Rohrabacher suggested that Congress was still stuck in a Cold War mentality and said it was “hypocrisy” to label Russian actions “aggression.” > > “There are many people who I worked with over the years who are still stuck in the Cold War. They cannot sit by and understand that Russia has its national interests, as we have our national interests,” he said. “What do the people of Crimea want? I don’t think anybody in here will disagree with the fact that it is clear the people of Crimea would rather be part of Russia than be part of a pro-European or European-directed Ukraine.” This one percent doesn’t make much sense with the rest of it. But up to here it’s quite interesting: > [@](#): > > The congressman did concede that Russia should not have invaded Crimea. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1891 "2014-03-26T00:29:35Z")
Really what’s the point of finding and quoting people who happen to agree with you? I am sure no one will deny that you aren’t the only person in the world who thinks this. Though at least you and XT are on topic with it unlike a certain scarlet emotion. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1892 "2014-03-26T00:39:21Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > For the hundredth time: we get it. The Iraq invasion was illegal. I was the first one to protest against it. That doesn’t give Russia a free-for-all. The fact that a law has been broken once before does not mean that it’s OK for the rest of us to break it too. I agree. But it also doesn’t make it OK for the country that broke the law to be smugly giving moral lectures about the sanctity of that law. That’s called hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1893 "2014-03-26T01:27:39Z")
NF: On 01-17-2014 at 07:24 PM Human Action wrote: > [@](#): > > We propaganda-consuming Westerns are rather enamored of rule of law, it’s done right by us for some time now. NF: In Egypt at least, but apparently not in Kiev? NF: 01-21-2014 at 09:32 AM Human Action wrote: > [@](#): > > What “due process” accompanied Morsi’s removal, again? NF: In Egypt due process was needed but not in Kiev? NF: On 01-21-2014 at 09:16 PM Human Action wrote: > [@](#): > > He at least had the legitimacy of being elected, and the police and army could have nicely checked his power to do anything too egregious. After his term was up, the Egyptian people could have decided if they wanted more of the same, or something different. Instead, all power is, again, concentrated in the military. NF: I am not sure why in Kiev the protestors and legislators should not have ‘nicely checked’ Yanukovich’s power if ‘they wanted something different’ and wait until ‘his term was up’. NF: On 01-21-2014 at 09:34 PM I wrote: > [@](#): > > The ‘mistake’ of electing Morsi became known and extraordinary measures were in or to correct the mistake. NF: To which, on 01-21-2014 at 09:52 PM, Human Action asked: > [@](#): > > And that invalidates the constitution that was voted on through referendum? NF: This appears to be a view that, in Egypt, an unconstitutionally committed act of removing a legitimately elected head of state from office prior to a full term being served, must mean that those actions ‘invalidates the constitution’. What Crimea did was take advantage of that ‘invalidation’, as Human Action suggests is what had occurred in Egypt, and in that vacuum, Crimea decided to ‘self-determine’ that their territory was no longer part of Ukraine or beholden to Ukraine’s ‘invalid’ Constitution. That, as I posted earlier, is what Churkin explained at the UN: > [@](#): > > We do not dispute the principle of the territorial integrity of States. It is indeed very important. It is also understandable that the enjoyment of the right to self-determination involving separation from an existing State is an extraordinary measure, **applied when further coexistence within a single State becomes impossible.** Moreover, as practice has demonstrated, in the majority of cases, the realization of peoples’ right to self-determination is achieved without the agreement of the central authorities of the State. > > With respect to Crimea, \*\*that case resulted from a legal vacuum generated by an unconstitutional armed coup d’état carried out in Kyiv \*\*by radical nationalists in February, as well as by their direct threats to impose their order throughout Ukraine. NF: Cites From January are from the following link: > **[Is civil war in Egypt averted? 90% yes for new Constitution.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=713389)** > > All the predictions of bloody civil war in Egypt appear to be quite wrong with this weeks news from that country. Is civil war likelihood vanished before our very eyes? Is fundamentalist Islam ceasing to be a threat in Egypt? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1894 "2014-03-26T01:32:05Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Really what’s the point of finding and quoting people who happen to agree with you? I am sure no one will deny that you aren’t the only person in the world who thinks this. Though at least you and XT are on topic with it unlike a certain scarlet emotion. That is a mysterious complaint. Rohrabacher is a high-ranking Republican Congressman and I find it a ‘rare’ comment’ coming from someone in the U.S. Congress. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1895 "2014-03-26T01:50:08Z")
Look, let’s all face it: All legalities notwithstanding, Russia’s annexation of Crimea is now a _fait accompli._ It is supported by sufficient numbers within Crimea to make it stick. Without a major war on the issue, which nobody wants, the peninsula will not return to Ukrainian jurisdiction in your lifetime or mine. How do we proceed forward from there? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1896 "2014-03-26T02:07:07Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Where has HA proven me wrong? The small size of the population of Crimea compared to all of Ukraine, and the number of ‘oblasts’ in Crimea compared to the number of ‘Oblasts’ on the mainland makes it impossible for Crimea to secede from Ukraine. > > Human Action has posted the paragraph that gives Crimea no chance of seceding through constitutional means when and if the context of the demographics and societal divisions within Ukraine are considered. Here it is. > > {An All-Ukrainian referendum is called on popular initiative on the request of no less than three million citizens of Ukraine who have the right to vote, on the condition that the signatures in favor of designating the referendum have been collected in no less than two-thirds of the oblasts, with no less than 100 000 signatures in each oblast.} Still waiting on evidence that Ukrainians would never vote for Crimean independence. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1897 "2014-03-26T02:21:12Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**CHARTS: The Top 5 Land-Grabbing Countries**](http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2013/01/top-land-grabbing-countries) > > Read if you will Care to elaborate? As far as I can tell, that is private purchase of land, that still is considered governed by the country it lies in. As opposed to removing land from the governing authority. But it’s up to you to make an argument that consists of more than “read this link”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1898 "2014-03-26T02:26:33Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Still waiting on evidence that Ukrainians would never vote for Crimean independence. His complaint has changed from “it’s constitutionally not allowed” to “it’s really hard”. Well, no shock Sherlock. It should be “really hard” for a piece of a sovereign nation to break away. Maybe he is not aware of the Civil War our country fought over that very idea. Anyway, you know the drill. He’s never wrong. Move the goalpost or claim “context”. It all boils down to never admitting he’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1899 "2014-03-26T02:34:08Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Excuuuuse me? The US does basically what it wants. Period. That isn’t an answer to the question you were asked, which was pretty straightforward, but I’ll rephrase it; why does the U.S. doing bad things to Iraq justify Russia doing bad things to Ukraine? All your talk about Russia “Standing up to the worldly bully,” which doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means but I think I get your point, is complete nonsense. Russia is not standing up the united States; they’re beating up Ukraine. Is Ukraine a major international bully? When Russia has the balls to actually fight AMERICANS, you be sure to let me know. Until then they’re just a two-bit bully. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513/1900 "2014-03-26T02:35:54Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > NF: On 01-17-2014 at 07:24 PM Human Action wrote: > > NF: In Egypt at least, but apparently not in Kiev? No idea what you’re talking about, rule of law wasn’t followed in Ukraine either, as I wrote, though it came a lot closer than Egypt did. They deserve credit for that, I guess. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > NF: 01-21-2014 at 09:32 AM Human Action wrote: > > NF: In Egypt due process was needed but not in Kiev? No idea what you’re talking about, **Marmite Lover** posted an article that said “Democracy allows for the removal of an unjust leader through due process; as our founding fathers recognized, when a ruler abuses his power, it is a nation’s duty to depose him and restore a just order.” I asked what “due process” was involved in this case; that’s a question, not a statement. Weren’t you the guy who was obsessive about context? > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > NF: On 01-21-2014 at 09:16 PM Human Action wrote: > > NF: I am not sure why in Kiev the protestors and legislators should not have ‘nicely checked’ Yanukovich’s power if ‘they wanted something different’ and wait until ‘his term was up’. Well, the protesters aren’t part of the government, and the Ukrainian military isn’t a massive, self-supporting fiefdom like Egypt’s, so there’s no commonality there. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > NF: On 01-21-2014 at 09:34 PM I wrote: > > NF: To which, on 01-21-2014 at 09:52 PM, Human Action asked: > > NF: This appears to be a view that, in Egypt, an unconstitutionally committed act of removing a legitimately elected head of state from office prior to a full term being served, must mean that those actions ‘invalidates the constitution’. No, that’s the view that you, in that thread, were arguing that the 2012 Constitution was invalid, and the 2014 one wasn’t. I never argued that the 2012 Constitution had been invalidated, just suspended by the military. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > What Crimea did was take advantage of that ‘invalidation’, as Human Action suggests is what had occurred in Egypt, and in that vacuum, Crimea decided to ‘self-determine’ that their territory was no longer part of Ukraine or beholden to Ukraine’s ‘invalid’ Constitution. That, as I posted earlier, is what Churkin explained at the UN: > > NF: Cites From January are from the following link: > [Is civil war in Egypt averted? 90% yes for new Constitution. - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=713389) Or, Russia used those as flimsy pretexts to seize Crimea for itself. How are we to know which it was? Russia’s various actions in this matter are certainly consistent with a land grab, wouldn’t you say? Just like the Egyptian military’s removal of Morsi and suppression of his party is consistent with the military seizing power for itself, and not trying to rescue democracy from Islamism? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=94) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-how-will-the-west-respond/682513.md?page=96)