# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news
**Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 108
### Author:  [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2022, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2141 "2022-03-12T18:48:12Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> Russia announced yesterday they’re considering attacking convoys of supplies from Western nations to Ukraine. This didn’t get as much media play as you’d think, but is an alarming escalation.
why do you think that?
… for me it was completely assumed that a weapon’s transport is “fair game” (as the looooong convoy was also fair game for the Ukr.), and was a bit surprised that this was news at all, esp. coming from the people that shell hospitals and nuclear plants …
“_we reserve the right to shoot at everybody within the territory of Ukraine_” ™
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### Author:  [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2022, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2142 "2022-03-12T18:54:21Z")
Yeah, the surprising thing is that Russia didn’t move to cut off supply from the West on day one. That should have been the priority of the northern force; not Kyiv.
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2022, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2143 "2022-03-12T19:01:38Z")
> [@scabpicker](#):
>
> Ehh, it’s floating around. I coulda sworn it’s been mentioned in this thread. I have seen it mentioned elsewhere on the board.
I did link to an article upthread which said the Russia tends to use conscripts with little training in their logistics divisions, but that’s different from untrained troops in the front fighting lines.
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2022, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2144 "2022-03-12T19:29:23Z")
> [@Cervaise](#):
>
> Unfortunately, Francis Fukuyama is rather notorious for _not_ usually knowing what he’s talking about.
Started reading the article then saw the byline.
I guess we should assume the opposite for most of his predictions, given his track record. ☹
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2022, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2145 "2022-03-12T20:20:00Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#):
>
> Here’s an excellent and balanced article from the Kyiv Independent about the current situation in the Kyiv area.
What is a “Battalion Tactical Group”, please? It’s referenced in this article and in others recently.
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### Author:  [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2022, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2146 "2022-03-12T20:22:25Z")
_A BTG typically comprises a [battalion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battalion) (typically [mechanised infantry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanized_infantry)) of 2–4 [companies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_(military_unit)) reinforced with air-defence, artillery, engineering, and logistical support units, formed from a garrisoned army brigade. A tank company and rocket artillery also typically reinforce such groupings. BTGs formed the mainstay of Russia’s military intervention in Ukraine from 2013–2015, particularly in the [Donbass war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas).[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battalion_tactical_group#cite_note-Fiore_9-10-2)_
Our version is the Brigade Combat Team, which has more infantrymen but without the heavy weapons support. Faster, but with less punch.
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### Author:  [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2022, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2147 "2022-03-12T20:37:04Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> What is a “Battalion Tactical Group”, please?
> **[Battalion tactical group](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battalion_tactical_group)**
>
> A battalion tactical group (Russian: Батальонная тактическая группа, batal'onnaya takticheskaya gruppa), abbreviated as BTG, is a combined-arms manoeuvre unit deployed by the Russian Army that is kept at a high level of readiness. A BTG typically comprises a battalion (typically mechanised infantry) of two to four companies reinforced with air-defence, artillery, engineering, and logistical support units, formed from a garrisoned army brigade. A tank company and rocket artillery typically rein
The article says that Russia has about 170 BTGs in total. From other sources, about 120-125 of those have already been committed to the war in Ukraine.
As I posted [above](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine/960037/2098), Ukraine is saying that 18 battalion tactical groups have completely lost their combat capability, and 13 have been completely destroyed. So 31 are out of action.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2022, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2148 "2022-03-12T20:41:45Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> What is a “Battalion Tactical Group”, please? It’s referenced in this article and in others recently.
The heirarchy of miulitary units, roughly speaking, and going from smallest to largest:
Section/squad/stick/crew (in infantry, typically 8-10 people)
Platoon - typically 3 sections, plus a commanding officer and maybe a heavy weapons team
Company - 3 platoons
Battalion
Regiment
Brigade
Division
Corps
Army
Not everyone is exactly the same but that’s the general jist of it.
As you go up you typically have 2-4 of the smaller unit, but this is a huge simplification. As you increase an infantry unit, you can’t just have more infantry. You need supporting arms. So as I note, an infantry platoon will not just have three infantry sections; you will have a platoon commander, a platoon sergeant, and perhaps some guys with a mortar or a heavy machine gun. When you put three platoons together, now you need another commander plus more stuff. By the time you have an infantry division - a huge organization ranging from 10000 to 20000 soldiers depending on type - you’ve added a divisional artillery group, reconnaissance units, engineers, a field hospital, a motor pool, a huge headquarters group, electronic warfare, embedded helicopter units, an intelligence company, antiaircraft batteries, logistics, and so on.
A Battalion Tactical Group, or any similar sounding thing, is basically that size of unit but with many attached assets to make it independently capable of fighting on its own, with appropriate support from higher echelons.
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2022, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2149 "2022-03-12T21:00:33Z")
Thanks, all. Interesting.
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### Author:  [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2022, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2150 "2022-03-12T22:35:07Z")
Latest summary from the Institute for the Study of War:
>
> [@](#):
>
> Russian forces secured limited advances east of Kyiv and north from Crimea on March 12 but continue to face logistical challenges, mounting casualties, and sustained Ukrainian counterattacks. Russian forces did not conduct offensive operations northwest of Kyiv in the past 24 hours. Russian forces made limited advances around Chernihiv and toward Kyiv’s eastern outskirts after pausing for several days. Continued Ukrainian counterattacks and successful operations by Ukraine’s Territorial Defense Forces continue to threaten Russia’s long line of communication in northeastern Ukraine. Russian forces captured unspecified “eastern outskirts” of Mariupol on March 12 and continue to shell the city in a likely effort to force it to capitulate.
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2022, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2151 "2022-03-12T23:06:54Z")
Apparently there is some gloominess on Russian state tv:
> **[Even Russian State TV Is Pleading With Putin to Stop the War](https://www.thedailybeast.com/even-russias-state-tv-admits-ukraine-disaster-has-putin-in-trouble)**
>
> State propagandists called for Putin to end the “special military operation” before “frightening” sanctions destabilize his regime and risk civil war in Russia.
> [@](#):
>
> Even the infamous show run by Soloviev—[who was recently sanctioned as an accomplice of Putin by the European Union](https://www.thedailybeast.com/sanctioned-russian-tv-host-vladimir-soloviev-cries-about-losing-his-italian-villa)—became dominated by predictions of Russian doom and gloom. Andrey Sidorov, deputy dean of world politics at Moscow State University, cautioned: “ **For our country, this period won’t be easy. It will be very difficult. It might be even more difficult than it was for the Soviet Union from 1945 until the 1960s.** … We’re more integrated into the global economy than the Soviet Union, we’re more dependent on imports—and the main part is that the Cold War is the war of the minds, first and foremost. **Unfortunately, the Soviet Union had a consolidating idea on which its system was built. Unlike the Soviet Union, Russia has nothing like that to offer.”**
>
> State TV pundit Karen Shakhnazarov pointed out: “The war in Ukraine paints a frightening picture, it has a very oppressive influence on our society. Ukraine, whichever way you see it, is something with which Russia has thousands of human links. The suffering of one group of innocents does not compensate for the suffering of other innocent people… **I don’t see the probability of denazification of such an enormous country. We would need to bring in 1.5 million soldiers to control all of it. At the same time, I don’t see any political power that would consolidate the Ukrainian society in a pro-Russian direction… Those who talked of their mass attraction to Russia obviously didn’t see things the way they are.** The most important thing in this scenario is to stop our military action. Others will say that sanctions will remain. Yes, they will remain, but in my opinion discontinuing the active phase of a military operation is very important.”
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### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2022, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2152 "2022-03-12T23:18:43Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> State TV pundit Karen Shakhnazarov pointed out: “The war in Ukraine paints a frightening picture …
I wonder if she’s aware that the only permissible description of this invasion is “special military operation”. Putin enacted a law that provides for 15 years imprisonment for anyone referring to it as a “war” or “invasion”.
> **[Russia increases censorship with new law: 15 years in jail for calling...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/ukraine/2022/03/08/russia-free-speech-press-criminalization-misinformation/9433112002/)**
>
> As Russia grows increasingly isolated from the Western world due to sanctions, the Kremlin has embraced the isolation by pushing speech and the press.
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2022, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2153 "2022-03-12T23:19:57Z")
Probably a “false flag” translation by the folks at Daily Beast to get her off to the gulags.
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### Author:  [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2022, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2154 "2022-03-12T23:31:48Z")
Interesting article, from before the war, about Russia’s poor logistics and heavy reliance on supply by rail.
> [@](#):
>
> The Russian army will be hard-pressed to conduct a ground offensive of more than 90 miles beyond the borders of the former Soviet Union without a logistics pause. For NATO, it means it can worry less about a major Russian invasion of the Baltic states or Poland and a greater focus on exploiting Russian logistic challenges by drawing Russian forces further away from their supply depots and targeting chokepoints in the Russian logistic infrastructure and logistic force in general. It also means that Russia is more likely to seize small parts of enemy territory under its logistically sustainable range of 90 miles rather than a major invasion as part of a _fait accompli_ strategy.
>
> From the Russian perspective, it does not appear that they are building their logistic forces with _fait accompli_ or blitzkrieg across Poland in mind. Instead, the Russian government has built an ideal army for their strategy of “Active Defense.” The Russian government has built armed forces highly capable of fighting on home soil or near its frontier and striking deep with long-range fires. However, they are not capable of a sustained ground offensive far beyond Russian railroads without a major logistical halt or a massive mobilization of reserves.
> **[Feeding the Bear: A Closer Look at Russian Army Logistics and the Fait...](https://warontherocks.com/2021/11/feeding-the-bear-a-closer-look-at-russian-army-logistics/)**
>
> Editor's note: Don't miss our comprehensive guide to Russia's war against Ukraine. Russia’s military buildup along the border with Ukraine has
Ukraine railroads use the same gauge as Russia, making control of them particularly crucial to Russian advances into Ukrainian territory.
It’s interesting to therefore compare a map of the war with [a map of Ukrainian railroads](http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/ukraine/ukraine.gif).
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### Author:  [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2022, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2155 "2022-03-12T23:49:31Z")
> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> > [@Northern\_Piper](#):
> >
> > State TV pundit Karen Shakhnazarov pointed out: “The war in Ukraine paints a frightening picture …
>
> I wonder if she’s aware {…}
Apropos of nothing whatsoever, the lady’s a dude:
> **[Karen Shakhnazarov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Shakhnazarov)**
>
> Karen Georgievich Shakhnazarov (Russian: Каре́н Гео́ргиевич Шахназа́ров; born 8 July 1952) is a Soviet and Russian filmmaker, producer and screenwriter. He became the director general of Mosfilm in 1998.
> Shakhnazarov is the son of a Georgy Shakhnazarov, a politician of Armenian descent, and a Russian housewife, Anna Grigorievna Shakhnazarova.
> His 1987 film Courier was entered into the 15th Moscow International Film Festival, where it won a Special Prize. In 2002 he was a member of the jury at t...
Who should probably have others taste his food first for a while …
ETA: somewhat interestingly …
> In March 2014 he signed a letter in support of the position of the President of Russia [Vladimir Putin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin) on the situation in Ukraine and [Crimea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea).[[6]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Shakhnazarov#cite_note-6) For this he was banned from entering [Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine).[[7]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Shakhnazarov#cite_note-7)
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2022, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2156 "2022-03-12T23:50:57Z")
Thank you for that. I had assumed female as well.
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2022, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2157 "2022-03-13T00:03:05Z")
Roger Stone and Karen Shakhnazarov: separated at birth?
> **[Karen Shakhnazarov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Shakhnazarov)**
>
> Pages for logged out editors learn more
>
> Karen Georgievich Shakhnazarov, PAR (Russian: Каре́н Гео́ргиевич Шахназа́ров; born 8 July 1952) is a Soviet and Russian filmmaker, producer and screenwriter. He became the Director General of Mosfilm studios in 1998.
> Shakhnazarov is the son of a Georgy Shakhnazarov, a politician of Armenian descent, and a Russian housewife, Anna Grigorievna Shakhnazarova.
> His 1987 film Courier was entered into the 15th Moscow International Film Festival, where i...
> **[Roger Stone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Stone)**
>
> Pages for logged out editors learn more
>
>
>
> Roger Jason Stone\[a\] (born Roger Joseph Stone Jr.; August 27, 1952) is an American conservative political consultant and lobbyist.
> Since the 1970s, Stone has worked on the campaigns of Republican politicians, including Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, Jack Kemp, Bob Dole, George W. Bush, and Donald Trump. In addition to frequently serving as a campaign adviser, Stone was a political lobbyist. In 1980, he co-founded a Washington, D.C.–based lobbyin...
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### Author:  [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2022, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2158 "2022-03-13T01:14:32Z")
After referring to Ukraine as a war on TV, this is one Karen who does _not_ want to see the manager.
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### Author:  [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2022, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2159 "2022-03-13T01:24:07Z")
> [@Horatius](#):
>
> I think the obvious reason is the most likely: We were all wrong about Russia’s strength, _including the Russians._
This. The Russians had an impressive army on paper, but many if not most of the papers were forgeries designed to cover the diversion of military budgets into mansions and megayachts.
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### Author:  [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2022, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2160 "2022-03-13T01:39:17Z")
It is 1939 and the Soviet army is marching onwards to Finland.
As they pass the border, they hear a Finnish voice over the hill: “One Finnish soldier is better than 10 Soviet soldiers!”
The Soviet general laughs, as he sends 10 men on the hill to capture it. There is gunfire for a minute and then everything goes silent for a moment, and they then hear the same voice:
“One Finnish soldier is better than a hundred of yours!”
Annoyed, the Soviet general sends a hundred men to capture the hill. There is gunfire and bombs going for ten minutes, and everything goes silent again. Suddenly, the same voice yells out;
“One Finnish soldier is better than a thousand Soviet soldiers!”
Enraged, the general sends a thousand men, accompanied with tanks, artillery, mortar teams, and tells them to not return until the hill is theirs. For half an hour hell breaks loose, bombs and explosions, gunfire, screams and death all around, and then it goes silent again. One Soviet soldier crawls back, severely wounded and battered. Before the general could say anything, the soldier says;
“Do not send more troops, comrade general, it’s a trap! There are two of them.”
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